Transcript
[0:04] If we think that we are foreign,
[0:09] alien islands of consciousness
[0:12] in a universe which in itself is
[0:15] basically unconscious, mechanistic and
[0:18] stupid,
[0:20] then we have to declare war on the
[0:22] universe.
[0:25] >> Welcome to Voices of Esin. I'm Sam
[0:27] Stern. This is a dialogue from 1966
[0:32] between Elin co-founder Michael Murphy
[0:34] and philosopher Alan Watts, which is
[0:37] notable for both its superb content and
[0:40] for being one of the only instances I've
[0:41] ever encountered of Michael Murphy
[0:43] conducting an interview himself. But
[0:45] hey, when it's Alan Watts, I mean, I
[0:47] guess all bets are off. So, first off,
[0:50] who is Alan Watts? He's born in England
[0:53] but moved to the United States in 1938
[0:56] to pursue Zen training in New York. Then
[0:58] he attended a theological seminary and
[1:00] he got a master's degree in theology. He
[1:03] became an Episcopal priest in 1945. He
[1:06] left the ministry in 1950 and it was at
[1:09] that point that he moved to California
[1:11] where he joined the faculty of the
[1:13] American Academy of Asian Studies. And
[1:15] it was during the 1950s that number one,
[1:18] he got a radio show on KPFA where he
[1:20] begins to talk about Eastern
[1:23] contemplative traditions. And he met
[1:26] Elon co-founders Dick Price and Michael
[1:28] Murphy, both of whom were kicking around
[1:30] the Bay Area after their stints at
[1:33] Stanford trying to figure out what the
[1:35] heck they were doing with their lives.
[1:36] It's also widely known that Watts comes
[1:39] to represent this pivotal figure in the
[1:41] transmission of Eastern philosophical
[1:43] traditions to western intellectual
[1:45] discourse. So by the time this
[1:47] conversation rolls around in 1966, Watts
[1:50] had long since established himself as a
[1:52] rather famous interpreter of Zen
[1:54] Buddhism, Dowoism, and Hindu metaphysics
[1:57] for American audiences. So we're talking
[1:59] the Beats, the early hippies, young
[2:02] people, intellectuals. They were all
[2:04] fascinated by Zen and the I-ching and
[2:06] Buddhism. And at Esselin, where Alan
[2:09] Watts taught from the very first days in
[2:11] 1962 up until his death in 1973, he
[2:14] really found an ideal context for
[2:16] exploring the synthesis between those
[2:18] eastern contemplative traditions and
[2:21] this western psychological inquiry which
[2:23] was coming to the forefront especially
[2:25] at places like Eselin. This conversation
[2:28] that Murphy and Watts have occurs at a
[2:31] moment of considerable social upheaval.
[2:34] Obviously, you know, you've got an
[2:35] escalation of American involvement in
[2:38] Vietnam. You've got the Johnson
[2:40] presidency becoming increasingly
[2:42] unpopular because of that. Got the
[2:44] emergence of several countercultural
[2:46] movements, including the civil rights
[2:48] movement and this more or less new
[2:50] hippie psychedelic culture. Right? So
[2:52] there's this widespread questioning of
[2:55] established institutional authority and
[2:57] it's within this millu that Watts and
[2:59] Murphy examine fundamental questions
[3:02] about human consciousness and the
[3:04] peculiarities of American cultural
[3:06] expression. And of course it's all
[3:08] delivered in that million-dollar voice
[3:10] by Mr. Alan Watts. I mean this guy could
[3:13] read a Denny's menu and make it sound
[3:15] profound.
[3:16] So, here's Alan Watts interviewed by
[3:19] Michael Murphy in 1966.
[3:25] >> So far, most people think about the
[3:28] success of a biological species as in
[3:31] terms of the length of time for which it
[3:33] survives.
[3:35] And so for from this point of view, an
[3:37] ant is an enormously successful
[3:39] non-historical animal that goes on and
[3:43] on and on repeating the same pattern
[3:44] again and again. Now this might be
[3:47] something towards which human beings
[3:50] could aspire. But the way most of us are
[3:53] at present constructed, we would find
[3:55] this appallingly dull. And therefore
[3:58] when
[3:59] some kinds of scientists or philosophers
[4:02] say that survival
[4:05] is the prime criterion of value. There
[4:10] is the opposite point of view that the
[4:13] criterion of value does involve survival
[4:16] because of course you have to live and
[4:18] go on living to do anything at all. But
[4:21] that superimposed on that there must be
[4:25] surviving in a certain way.
[4:28] Now
[4:30] you know that TS Elliott suggested at
[4:33] the end of the wasteland that this is
[4:35] the way the world ends not with a bang
[4:37] but a whimper.
[4:39] And Chesterton uh once said, "You may go
[4:43] off with a whimper, but we will go off
[4:45] with a bang." Because for those people
[4:48] who would rather
[4:50] be a big flash and a in a great
[4:53] significant explosion, then eke life out
[4:56] sensibly
[4:57] and providently and in a really rather
[5:00] misily way so that it lasts a long long
[5:03] time. I mean, if you've got a some
[5:04] butter in the refrigerator and uh what
[5:07] are you going to do if you're rather
[5:08] poor? Are you going to put a big nice
[5:11] glob of butter on a piece of bread and
[5:13] have it or you going to scrape a little
[5:14] bit off each day and put it over the
[5:16] bread so that you hardly notice it's
[5:18] there? See? Now, that's the important
[5:21] question. So, in a way, you could say
[5:24] that the dinosaur
[5:26] uh was an enormous and fantastic
[5:30] prodigy. such an enormous thing couldn't
[5:32] last very long, but it was great while
[5:34] it went on. Maybe it was, I don't know,
[5:36] but it's certainly, one could say this
[5:38] of human beings that uh we may be a
[5:41] mistake. I could give you all kinds of
[5:44] reasons for saying that the human race
[5:47] is an aberration, is an abnormality, is
[5:50] the most uh unnatural thing imaginable.
[5:53] But on the other hand, one could also
[5:55] say, but it's the most magnificently
[5:57] unnatural thing.
[6:00] and to have lived in the human race and
[6:02] of the human race say now in the 20th
[6:05] century when we are as crazy as we can
[6:07] possibly get as far as I can see.
[6:10] Nevertheless, this may be the high point
[6:13] in a whole cycle of the cosmic process
[6:18] and only be repeated again in another 10
[6:21] to the^ of 59 years on some other
[6:24] galaxy.
[6:27] Do you see um man as possibly being um
[6:31] in transition to some other even more
[6:34] fabulous kind of existence as a as a
[6:38] society?
[6:40] >> Well, I do see the possibility of this.
[6:43] Uh let's go back a little and see what
[6:45] um really has happened. Man is a
[6:48] biological
[6:50] phenomenon which has concentrated or
[6:53] specialized on certain ways of
[6:57] developing his consciousness or his
[6:59] awareness.
[7:01] And it seems to me that the thing that
[7:03] marks man out from other types of
[7:06] biological organization and particularly
[7:09] marks out the human nervous system from
[7:12] other kinds of nervous system is the
[7:14] capacity of the human being to
[7:17] concentrate
[7:18] on small areas or shall I say
[7:24] separated off areas of experience.
[7:27] It's as if we had developed a flood
[7:30] light, I mean a a spotlight to
[7:33] supplement the flood light of the more
[7:36] generalized sensitivity of other
[7:39] organisms.
[7:41] That is to say, the faculty of the mind
[7:44] in which human beings have specialized
[7:47] is what we call conscious attention.
[7:49] This is the faculty that we have to use
[7:51] for any kind of literary or scientific
[7:54] pursuit to read, to write, to play
[7:58] music, especially to read music, to do
[8:02] mathematics, to do architecture, to do
[8:05] engineering. Any kind of pursuit of that
[8:08] kind requires the capacity to
[8:11] concentrate our attention upon segments
[8:14] of experience. And these segments we
[8:16] call things and events.
[8:20] Once you can concentrate on a segment,
[8:23] you can count the segments,
[8:27] you can quantify them
[8:32] and
[8:34] then begin to have
[8:38] a view of the world
[8:42] that is as if
[8:45] you had taken an ordinary landscape
[8:48] Say we're sitting here now and we're
[8:50] looking at Mount Tamil Py and the water
[8:53] and Mount Tamil Py is a fairly wiggly
[8:57] formation.
[8:59] It isn't by any means a triangle sitting
[9:02] up there.
[9:04] But in order to talk about the landscape
[9:07] we're looking at from a scientific point
[9:09] of view, we should have to paste over
[9:11] the window here a huge uh sheet of
[9:15] cellophane
[9:17] upon which graph paper patterns had been
[9:20] printed
[9:21] squares and subsquares. You see, then we
[9:25] could number all those squares and we
[9:29] could describe the landscape beyond in
[9:32] terms of the numbers on the squares.
[9:35] In that way, we would have some sort of
[9:38] rigorous
[9:40] scientifically accurate description
[9:43] of the natural landscape we're looking
[9:45] at. And as you know once you get things
[9:49] plotted on graph paper you can start to
[9:51] make extrapolations
[9:54] and predictions of the way a curve will
[9:56] move. And so it is in this way that by a
[10:00] kind of concentrated attention that can
[10:03] analyze
[10:04] the movements and the rhythms of life
[10:07] into little pieces.
[10:09] We have developed the whole of
[10:11] technology.
[10:14] Now it must be understood that the power
[10:18] to concentrate on segments of life goes
[10:21] hand in hand with an ability to use
[10:24] symbols.
[10:26] That is to say to use numbers, to use
[10:29] words or to use say musical notation to
[10:33] represent the events and the things
[10:36] which this kind of analytical
[10:40] dissective concentration can single out
[10:44] in the vast continuum of the experience
[10:49] of our five senses. So this capacity to
[10:53] attend consciously to the details of the
[10:56] world seems to me to be the very
[10:58] distinctive things that the human race
[11:00] has evolved. But at the same time
[11:05] for all the advantages it has, it has
[11:07] some startling limitations.
[11:09] It might be said to have two limitations
[11:12] which are quite serious. Number one is
[11:16] that a capacity
[11:19] to see the world in all this separate
[11:24] analyzed detail prevents you from seeing
[11:27] the other side of the picture which is
[11:29] the way in which things are related to
[11:30] each other. I mean it's a famous story
[11:32] that u in medicine a specialization goes
[11:36] so far that one kind of surgeon knows
[11:40] understands only hearts another only
[11:42] stands understands throats another only
[11:44] understands teeth another only
[11:46] understands brains and they work upon
[11:49] human beings rather like automobile
[11:50] mechanics they deal with these
[11:53] particular organs in the human being as
[11:55] if they corresponded to mechanical parts
[11:58] like a distributor or carburetor or
[12:00] whatever it might me. And so they go on
[12:02] fussing around in one place and unaware
[12:06] that their alterations of the human
[12:08] brain or their alterations of the human
[12:11] heart have effects on the stomach or the
[12:13] thyroid gland or whatever and then they
[12:16] suddenly discover that they are like the
[12:17] sorcerer's apprentice that they have
[12:20] found the magic to bring about a certain
[12:23] change but then they can't control the
[12:25] results of this. See, so the great
[12:27] difficulty of analytical thinking of
[12:31] seeing the world as an amalgamation, a
[12:34] kind of collection of things and events
[12:36] is that it obscures appreciation of the
[12:41] inseparable interrelatedness of all
[12:43] these things. The second difficulty,
[12:48] the second difficulty that arises from
[12:50] this is a natural emergence of the
[12:53] first. In other words, if you start to
[12:57] view the world as a collection of
[13:01] separate things that as it were have
[13:03] come together, you are going to be
[13:05] looking at the human being himself as a
[13:09] thing separate from other things. And
[13:12] here you get into very serious trouble.
[13:14] The trouble of the first thing is that
[13:16] you don't see relationships adequately.
[13:18] The trouble of the second is the special
[13:21] instance of this that you don't see the
[13:23] relationship between man and his natural
[13:26] environment.
[13:28] Now let's take two images. Number one is
[13:33] uh
[13:34] a barren tree upon which a group of
[13:37] birds have settled. The birds came from
[13:39] somewhere else. They didn't grow on the
[13:42] tree like leaves or fruit. They just
[13:44] settled there. And the
[13:46] characteristically western and modern
[13:48] view of man's place in nature is despite
[13:51] everything that has been said about
[13:52] evolution that man is a stranger in the
[13:54] world and he's settled on it just like
[13:56] birds on a barren tree. The other image
[13:59] would of course be the tree with the
[14:01] fruit and the leaves on it that had
[14:02] grown out of it and that really belong
[14:04] to it. And although from a theoretical
[14:07] point of view the biological sciences
[14:10] show and the zological sciences show
[14:12] that we have evolved out of the earth
[14:14] just in the same way as the grass. This
[14:16] is not the practically operative
[14:20] philosophy of man's nature that lies
[14:23] behind the development of western
[14:25] technology. The practically operative
[14:28] philosophy is that although man may have
[14:31] evolved out of the natural matrix that
[14:35] he did so by a sheer fluke that by a
[14:38] sheer fluke he has acquired an
[14:41] intelligence and a set of values and a
[14:44] set of emotions which because they are
[14:47] fluky that is to say might happen only
[14:49] once in god knows how many millions of
[14:51] years. They are therefore something
[14:54] which nature itself does not support.
[14:56] Something which is really antagonistic
[14:59] to nature and that if man is to maintain
[15:03] his identity and his peculiar values he
[15:06] has got to fight with nature to
[15:09] establish them.
[15:14] This, mind you, is a a philosophy
[15:19] which emerged out of the scientific
[15:22] thought of the 19th century.
[15:26] It could equally well have emerged out
[15:28] of the thought of Plato,
[15:31] which is the poles apart from the
[15:33] philosophy of science of the 19th
[15:35] century. Plato uh is largely responsible
[15:38] for our thinking of man as a spirit
[15:41] imprisoned in matter. The philosophy of
[15:44] science of the 19th century wouldn't
[15:46] acknowledge the existence of any spirit.
[15:48] But they substituted for the word spirit
[15:50] the word fluke. You see and this will
[15:54] equally well do for the will of God. You
[15:57] see the will of God as Christians and
[16:00] Jews conceived it is pretty arbitrary.
[16:02] God does what he wants to do. And what
[16:04] he does is by definition, right? And so
[16:07] suddenly it says in the Bible, one day
[16:09] the Lord was sort of wandering around
[16:11] and whoops, he created great whales.
[16:14] And you know, there was really no reason
[16:16] for there being great whales. It was
[16:18] just a feat of imagination that this
[16:20] fantastic fish should arise or whatever
[16:23] they are. And there you have it. So in
[16:26] the same way, whoops, he suddenly
[16:27] thought up man. Well, that's the same
[16:30] thing in to all intents and purposes as
[16:32] a fluke.
[16:34] and uh it has no what you might call
[16:39] rational continuity with anything that
[16:41] went before.
[16:43] It was as unpredictable as hiccups.
[16:47] So uh in this kind of way of looking at
[16:52] things, if you look at man as a fluke or
[16:56] as a kind of evolutionary hiccups,
[16:59] then you've got your image of man
[17:02] arriving on the tree of existence like a
[17:04] bird from a distant place
[17:07] and he has no real rational relationship
[17:11] to his environment. But all this seems
[17:14] to me to be belied
[17:16] by
[17:18] biological and ecological studies
[17:23] which show so clearly that man could
[17:27] only exist in the kind of environment
[17:30] that we have. In other words, that an
[17:33] environment
[17:35] which includes a sun and a planet with a
[17:38] moon
[17:40] with a certain kind of atmosphere with
[17:43] trees with a certain kind of uh cosmic
[17:47] rays and oxygen and uh condensation of
[17:51] water and so on. That environment is as
[17:55] much a manrowing environment as an apple
[17:58] tree is an appleing tree. So that the
[18:03] kind of nature in which we live is human
[18:06] nature just as an apple tree is an apple
[18:10] tree. If humans grow on this planet, you
[18:13] see, then it's a human planet. And all
[18:16] this idea that that's the pathetic
[18:18] fallacy that we are reading human values
[18:20] into nature which is inhuman. That idea
[18:23] of the pathetic fallacy is based on the
[18:25] assumption that man and nature have
[18:27] nothing to do with each other. If man is
[18:28] a product of nature, then nature is a
[18:31] human ining nature. And you could say
[18:33] carrying it very far that you don't find
[18:36] an intelligent organism in an
[18:38] unintelligent environment. You see,
[18:40] ecology shows us more and more that if
[18:43] you describe the behavior of an organism
[18:45] and you describe it thoroughly, you are
[18:48] very soon describing the behavior of the
[18:50] environment. You can't say what an
[18:52] organism is doing unless at the same
[18:55] time and in the same breath you tell us
[18:58] what the environment is doing. It means
[19:00] nothing to describe the action of a
[19:03] human being walking. Unless you talk
[19:05] about the space in which he is walking.
[19:07] If you don't talk about the space in
[19:09] which he is walking, all that you're
[19:10] describing is a human being dangling in
[19:12] midair moving his legs backwards and
[19:15] forwards. But if he's to walk, you've
[19:17] got to describe the relationship of the
[19:19] moving of the legs backwards and
[19:20] forwards to a ground. And so you you
[19:23] start to talk about the environment. Now
[19:24] that's the very very simple illustration
[19:26] of something that becomes far more
[19:28] complex that uh so that when you get to
[19:32] the end of it, you have to conclude
[19:34] there isn't on the one hand the behavior
[19:36] of the human being and or of the
[19:38] organism and on the other hand the
[19:40] behavior of the environment.
[19:43] They are both the same thing.
[19:48] That is to say, you can replace the old
[19:52] idea of an organism in an environment by
[19:56] a new idea, which is that the
[19:58] environment is a field and that this
[20:01] field
[20:03] operates and that all actions within the
[20:07] field are the actions of the field. For
[20:10] example, when you have water boiling,
[20:13] the bubbles come up only at certain
[20:15] places. But the bubbles in the boiling
[20:18] water are a property of the whole field.
[20:21] The water is evenly hot, shall we say,
[20:23] all the way through, but the bubbles
[20:25] only emerge at certain places. So in the
[20:27] same way our environment is equally
[20:29] intelligent all the way through but the
[20:31] intelligence only emerges and the
[20:34] activity of intelligence only emerges at
[20:36] certain places where you might say there
[20:39] are cross points of stress of a certain
[20:41] kind so that intelligence emerges in the
[20:43] same way in the field of a science say
[20:46] the field of physics talking now with
[20:48] field in the academic sense of the word
[20:50] field all physicists have a certain
[20:52] amount of knowledge that they share in
[20:54] common and they keep circulating this
[20:56] knowledge uh among each other through
[20:58] their journals and articles and so on.
[21:01] And then suddenly five physicists in
[21:04] different parts of the world who don't
[21:05] know each other at all hit upon the same
[21:08] discovery at the same time in exactly
[21:10] the same way that when the water is
[21:11] ready to boil, a number of sources of in
[21:15] the water start producing bubbles at the
[21:18] same time because the the state of the
[21:20] field reaches a critical point at which
[21:23] shall we say these discoveries break
[21:25] out. Now the the difficulty is that the
[21:29] analytical
[21:30] separative way of thinking makes it very
[21:33] hard for people to understand
[21:36] that they themselves individually
[21:39] are functions of a field. If we don't
[21:42] understand that and if we think instead
[21:46] that we are foreign alien islands of
[21:50] consciousness in a universe which in
[21:52] itself is basically unconscious,
[21:55] mechanistic and stupid, then we have to
[21:58] declare war on the universe and fight
[22:00] for our place in it as if we didn't
[22:02] belong.
[22:04] Now that's what we're doing.
[22:07] Western man
[22:09] has a an avowed philosophy of the
[22:12] conquest of nature. And in the United
[22:15] States, which is the most,
[22:18] I suppose, in some ways the most
[22:19] technologically advanced country in the
[22:22] world,
[22:23] you see on every side evidence of a
[22:26] spirit of warfare between man and his
[22:29] environment. Here he has one of the most
[22:32] magnificent environments
[22:34] into which human beings ever moved
[22:38] in terms of natural resources
[22:42] and natural beauty. But what does he do?
[22:45] He behaves as if he had no more brains
[22:47] than a locust.
[22:49] He has a devised an engine known as a
[22:51] bulldozer
[22:53] with which he can push down mountains.
[22:58] He builds in the Hollywood Hills where
[23:01] I've been staying recently
[23:04] tracked areas that would normally be
[23:06] found somewhere in a valley or a plane.
[23:10] And he slices off great chunks of the
[23:12] hills and makes them flat lots upon
[23:14] which he can erect a conventional ranch
[23:16] house. This so upsets the ecology of the
[23:19] hill and the water streams and the
[23:23] vegetation life that when the next rains
[23:26] come, the parts of the uh terrace begin
[23:29] to drop down into the valley and uh um
[23:34] erosion begins. You see, because he
[23:36] hasn't sensibly studied the hill, he
[23:39] hasn't paid respect to the hill. That
[23:41] is, you see, he may think that some
[23:43] African or uh Asian savage is a stupid
[23:48] fellow because he regards the hill as a
[23:52] god and pays respect to it every
[23:54] morning. But that's this so-called
[23:57] primitive man is quite correct that you
[24:00] must pay respect to all natural
[24:03] phenomena to bodies of water to lakes to
[24:06] mountains to forests because they and
[24:12] you yourself as a man
[24:15] are what you are as a result of an
[24:17] extremely complicated balance of forces
[24:20] which is so subtle that it at present
[24:23] time still exceeds the comprehension
[24:26] of man's rational intellect.
[24:29] We would have to work out perhaps with
[24:31] the aid of computers and all sorts of uh
[24:35] complex machines for describing very
[24:39] very intricate networks of relationship.
[24:41] We would have to work out just how it is
[24:44] that the bunch of trees over there
[24:46] manages to stay there.
[24:49] So many factors are involved now. But we
[24:52] don't have that respect, you see, for
[24:55] something beyond our comprehension.
[24:57] We've got that respect to some extent
[24:59] for our own nervous system. Our
[25:01] neurologists know how little they know
[25:03] about it. And so they treat it with
[25:06] great care. They don't, as it were, rush
[25:08] in where angels fear to tread. But we
[25:10] haven't got the same point of view with
[25:12] regard to the physical environment. And
[25:15] so we go banging it around. We fill our
[25:18] soil with all kinds of chemicals that
[25:21] are caricaturures of uh the chemical
[25:25] constitution of a naturally found
[25:28] nourishing soil. We really don't know
[25:29] what we're doing. I don't want to say
[25:31] this to uh take the point of view that
[25:34] technology should therefore be
[25:36] abandoned. The point of view is rather
[25:38] that it should proceed with a good deal
[25:40] more respect, a good deal more caution
[25:42] and in a different spirit because the
[25:45] spirit is very important. The way you do
[25:47] a thing is in many ways quite as
[25:50] important as what you do. If I want you
[25:52] to pass me the salt at table and I say
[25:55] to you pass the salt, that has one
[25:58] effect. But if I say to you, would you
[26:01] please be so kind as to pass me the
[26:03] salt? That has another result. And so in
[26:07] the same way in our approach to animals
[26:10] and forests
[26:12] and um geological surroundings uh an an
[26:17] attitude of I could even say loving
[26:20] respect as if that were our own physical
[26:25] body an extension of the body.
[26:30] This would be far more productive and
[26:32] creative. It isn't just as if because it
[26:34] is a fact that
[26:37] the natural environment is
[26:40] continuous with the human body because
[26:44] that kind of embodying that kind of
[26:46] organization which we call man is
[26:50] something which the total environment is
[26:52] doing. It isn't something from outside
[26:54] that has been put into that environment
[26:56] as if some mysterious bird from another
[26:59] cosmos had laid human eggs here on earth
[27:03] like a cuckoo lays its eggs in another
[27:05] bird's nest. They grow here and belong
[27:07] to it.
[27:09] >> There are uh
[27:11] then emergent qualities
[27:13] uh occurring always in nature. the
[27:16] evolutionary process tosses up uh new
[27:20] modes of being. Um
[27:25] do you think this is still going on with
[27:28] people?
[27:33] I suppose it is because
[27:38] human beings uh constantly toss up new
[27:44] uh versions of the good life. So that
[27:48] there is a sort of
[27:50] in the same way as you might say nature
[27:52] experiments.
[27:54] I would rather say nature plays with
[27:57] different forms of life because you see
[27:59] I don't think that nature is uh
[28:03] seriously purposive. I think nature is
[28:06] playful.
[28:07] Nature
[28:09] is not under any compulsion
[28:12] to arrive at some goal as if nature were
[28:15] punching clocks in some sort of a
[28:17] business. You see uh I I think nature is
[28:21] a way of in the way in which existence
[28:24] in which being celebrates itself and
[28:28] this involves an almost infinitely
[28:31] inventive genius for variety. Variety
[28:35] based upon a certain sameness
[28:39] just as u the variety of spokes around
[28:43] the rim of the wheel are based upon the
[28:45] unity of the hub. so that you have
[28:47] colossal variety in nature. But I don't
[28:50] seem I don't see this variety as
[28:52] constituting a kind of pilgrimage
[28:56] towards some far-off divine event to
[28:58] which all creation moves. I see it far
[29:01] more in the spirit of exuberance.
[29:06] I mean we all talk about how nature is
[29:08] exuberant. how uh every tree produces
[29:12] far more seeds than ever will turn into
[29:15] trees. Now according to your philosophy
[29:18] of economics, you will interpret this.
[29:21] See if it used to be said that uh nature
[29:26] produces all these seeds just to be sure
[29:28] that one or two of them will get
[29:30] through. Now that was based on the ideas
[29:33] of efficiency experts, industrial
[29:36] efficiency experts working in the 19th
[29:38] century who influenced the philosophy of
[29:40] science accordingly. See, but they never
[29:42] thought of the the idea that it might be
[29:44] enormous fun to have all these seeds
[29:46] even if only a few of them come out.
[29:49] Same with human beings. The Catholic
[29:51] philosophy is that you ought only to
[29:52] have sexual intercourse for the purpose
[29:54] of reproducing the species. Well, they
[29:56] didn't know in the Middle Ages that
[29:58] human semen contained millions of
[30:01] potential human beings and that even if
[30:03] you only had intercourse once in 18
[30:05] months with your wife, uh you would
[30:07] waste millions of human beings. They
[30:09] didn't know that. You see, now on the
[30:11] same principle, uh you could actually
[30:13] have intercourse every night, you see,
[30:16] and have no intention of producing human
[30:18] beings at all, but do it just because it
[30:19] was fun and because it brought you
[30:21] together. So in exactly the same way you
[30:23] could say all these trees are showering
[30:25] seeds in all directions. Not because
[30:28] this is some
[30:30] engineeringly efficient method of
[30:33] getting a statistically effective number
[30:36] through you see but just because it's a
[30:38] great thing to do. I mean look at the
[30:40] sky. What you could say an enormous
[30:43] number of these stars probably are not
[30:46] like our sun and don't support a solar
[30:48] system. Therefore, they are they've gone
[30:51] to waste. They're not doing anything.
[30:53] They're not driving anything. You see,
[30:55] uh here are all the streams flowing down
[30:57] the mountain side. And here on Tamil Pis
[31:01] there are maybe uh 60 to 70 streams.
[31:05] None of them working a water wheel. And
[31:07] a lot of them just flow into the Pacific
[31:08] Ocean. See? Well, and I can think of in
[31:11] uh your country in Big Su, I can think
[31:14] of all those canyons there where full of
[31:16] flowers and trees and ferns that nobody
[31:19] ever looks at. And you might say, well,
[31:21] they're a total waste. I know a
[31:23] particular valley there where there's a
[31:24] hot waterfall and that hot waterfall
[31:27] flows and flows and flows and only very
[31:29] rarely does anybody ever take a shower
[31:30] under it. Uh now, should it be turned
[31:33] into a public park? Should everybody
[31:35] come and queue up and have the thing
[31:37] enclosed in a box and they all take a
[31:39] shower from it? I mean, that would be
[31:41] awful. The whole thing would be ruined.
[31:43] But just see, there are these things
[31:45] that go on in nature. Flowers that bloom
[31:48] in valleys unseen by men. They have no
[31:51] use.
[31:53] They are not for reproduction of
[31:54] flowers. They are sheer exuberance.
[31:57] They are just for the hell of it.
[32:03] Thank you for listening to Voices of
[32:04] Eselin. This episode was produced in
[32:06] conjunction with Shar Lavine. Our theme
[32:08] song is by Nico Hollowerman. Next week,
[32:11] we'll be back with part two of this
[32:13] interview. In terms of editing this
[32:15] tape, I pretty much left it alone, apart
[32:17] from getting rid of some obvious audio
[32:19] glitches and long pauses. I do try to
[32:23] take the pauses out. I composed the
[32:25] introduction to this podcast in
[32:26] collaboration with Claude, a large
[32:28] language model.
[32:30] Until next time, be well.
[32:33] [Music]
[32:53] Amazing.