Transcript
[0:03] [Music]
[0:17] iron john
[0:18] a book about men
[0:19] [Music]
[0:29] we are living at an important and
[0:30] fruitful moment now
[0:32] for it is clear to men that the images
[0:35] of adult manhood
[0:36] given by the popular culture are worn
[0:38] out
[0:39] a man can no longer depend on them by
[0:42] the time a man is 35
[0:45] he knows that the images of the white
[0:47] man the tough man
[0:48] the true man which he received in high
[0:51] school
[0:52] do not work in life such a man is open
[0:55] to visions of what a man is or could be
[0:58] the hearth and fairy stories have passed
[1:01] as water through fifty feet of soil
[1:03] through generations of men and women and
[1:06] we can trust their images
[1:08] more than say those invented by hans
[1:09] christian andersen
[1:11] the images the old stories give stealing
[1:15] the key from under the mother's pillow
[1:17] picking up a golden feather fallen from
[1:19] the burning breast of the firebird
[1:21] finding the wild man under the lake
[1:23] water following the tracks of one's own
[1:26] wound
[1:27] through the forest and finding that it
[1:28] resembles attacks of a god
[1:31] these are meant to be taken slowly into
[1:33] the body
[1:35] they continue to unfold once taken in
[1:38] it is in the old myths that we hear for
[1:40] example of zeus energy
[1:42] that positive leadership energy in men
[1:46] which popular culture constantly
[1:47] declares does not exist
[1:49] from king arthur we learn the value of
[1:51] the male mentor
[1:53] in the lives of young men we hear from
[1:56] the iron john story
[1:57] the importance of moving from the
[1:59] mother's realm to the father's realm
[2:02] and from all initiation stories we learn
[2:04] how essential it is
[2:06] to leave our parental expectations
[2:08] entirely
[2:09] and find a second father or a second
[2:12] king
[2:13] there is male initiation female
[2:15] initiation and human initiation
[2:18] in the following text i will be talking
[2:20] about male initiation only
[2:23] i want to make clear that this work does
[2:26] not seek to turn men against women
[2:28] nor to return men to the domineering
[2:31] mode that has led to repression of women
[2:33] and their values for centuries
[2:36] the thought in this work does not
[2:37] constitute a challenge to the women's
[2:39] movement
[2:40] the two movements are related to each
[2:42] other but each moves
[2:44] on a separate timetable the grief in men
[2:47] has been increasing steadily since the
[2:49] start started the industrial revolution
[2:51] and the grief has reached a depth now
[2:53] that cannot be ignored
[2:55] the dark side of men is clear
[2:59] their mad exploitation of earth
[3:01] resources
[3:02] devaluation and humiliation of women
[3:05] obsession with tribal warfare are
[3:07] undeniable
[3:09] genetic inheritance contributes to their
[3:12] obsessions but also culture
[3:14] and environment we have defective
[3:17] mythologies
[3:18] that ignore masculine depth of feeling
[3:20] assign men a place in the sky
[3:23] instead of earth teach obedience to the
[3:26] wrong powers
[3:27] work to keep men boys and entangle
[3:30] both men and women in systems of
[3:33] industrial domination
[3:35] that exclude both matriarchy and
[3:37] patriarchy
[3:39] i speak of the wild men on this tape and
[3:42] the distinction between the savage man
[3:44] and the wild man
[3:45] is crucial throughout the savage mode
[3:48] does great damage to soul earth and
[3:50] humankind
[3:52] we can say that though the savage is
[3:54] wounded he prefers
[3:55] not to examine it the wild man who has
[3:59] examined his wound
[4:00] resembles a zen priest or a shaman or a
[4:03] woodsman
[4:04] more than a savage the knowledge of how
[4:08] to build a nest in a bare tree
[4:09] how to fly to the wintering place how to
[4:12] perform the mating dance
[4:13] all of this information is stored in a
[4:15] bird in the reservoirs of its
[4:17] instinctual brain
[4:19] but human beings sensing how much
[4:21] flexibility they might need
[4:23] in meeting new situations decided to
[4:25] store
[4:26] this sort of knowledge outside the
[4:28] instinctual systems
[4:30] and they stored it in fairy stories
[4:34] stories then fairy stories legends myths
[4:37] heart stories amount to a reservoir
[4:40] where we keep new ways of responding
[4:43] that we can adopt
[4:44] when the conventional and current ways
[4:47] wear out
[4:50] and we talk a great deal about the
[4:51] american man as if there was some
[4:54] constant quality that remains stable
[4:56] over decades or even within a single
[4:57] decade
[4:59] the men who live today have veered far
[5:01] away from the saturnian
[5:02] old man-minded farmer proud of his
[5:05] introversion
[5:06] who arrived in new england in 1630
[5:08] willing to sit through three services
[5:10] in an unheated church in the south
[5:14] an expansive mother-bound cavalier
[5:17] developed
[5:18] and neither of these two american men
[5:20] resembled
[5:21] the greedy railroad entrepreneur that
[5:23] later developed in the northeast
[5:25] nor the reckless i will do without
[5:27] culture settlers of the west
[5:30] even in our own era the agreed-on model
[5:32] has changed dramatically
[5:34] during the fifties for an example an
[5:36] american character appeared with some
[5:38] consistency
[5:39] that became a model of manhood adopted
[5:41] by many men
[5:42] namely the 50s male he got to work early
[5:46] labored responsibly supported his wife
[5:48] and children and admired discipline
[5:50] reagan is a sort of mummified version of
[5:52] this dogged type
[5:54] this sort of man didn't see women's
[5:55] souls well but he appreciated their
[5:57] bodies
[5:58] and his view of culture and america's
[6:00] part in it was boyish and optimistic
[6:03] many of his qualities were strong and
[6:04] positive but underneath the charm and
[6:07] bluff
[6:08] there was and still remains much
[6:10] isolation
[6:11] deprivation and passivity unless he has
[6:14] an enemy
[6:15] he isn't sure that he's alive during the
[6:18] sixties
[6:19] another sort of man appeared the waste
[6:21] and violence of the vietnam war
[6:23] made men question whether they knew what
[6:25] an adult male really was
[6:27] if manhood meant vietnam did they want
[6:29] any part of it
[6:31] meanwhile the feminist movement
[6:32] encouraged men to actually look at women
[6:35] forcing them to become conscious of
[6:36] concerns and sufferings that the fifties
[6:39] male
[6:39] labored to avoid as men began to examine
[6:42] women's history and women's
[6:44] sensibilities
[6:44] some men began to notice what was called
[6:47] their feminine side
[6:48] and to pay attention to it this process
[6:51] continues to this day and i would say
[6:54] that most contemporary men are involved
[6:55] in it in some way
[6:57] there's something wonderful about this
[6:59] development i mean the practice of men
[7:01] welcoming their
[7:02] own feminine consciousness and nurturing
[7:04] it this is important
[7:06] and yet i have the sense that there is
[7:08] something wrong
[7:09] the male in the past 20 years has become
[7:12] more thoughtful
[7:13] and more gentle but by this process he
[7:16] has not become
[7:17] more free in the 70s i began to see all
[7:21] over the country
[7:22] a phenomenon that we might call the soft
[7:24] male
[7:25] sometimes even today when i look out in
[7:27] an audience perhaps
[7:29] half the young males are what i'd call
[7:31] soft they're lovely
[7:33] valuable people i like them they're not
[7:35] interested in harming the earth or
[7:37] starting wars
[7:38] there's a gentle attitude toward life
[7:40] and their whole being and style of
[7:42] living
[7:43] but many of these men are not happy you
[7:45] quickly notice the lack of energy in
[7:47] them
[7:48] they are life preserving but not exactly
[7:50] life-giving
[7:51] ironically you often see these men with
[7:54] strong women who positively radiate
[7:56] energy
[7:58] first learned about the anguish of
[7:59] so-called soft men
[8:01] when they told their stories in early
[8:02] men's gatherings
[8:04] in 1980 the llama community in new
[8:06] mexico
[8:07] asked me to teach a conference for men
[8:09] only their first
[8:11] in which about 40 men participated each
[8:13] day we concentrated on one greek god
[8:16] and one old story and then late in the
[8:18] afternoons we gathered to talk
[8:20] when the younger men spoke it was not
[8:22] uncommon for them
[8:24] to be weeping within five minutes the
[8:26] amount of grief and anguish in these
[8:28] younger men was astounding to me
[8:31] part of their grief rose out of
[8:32] remoteness from their fathers
[8:34] which they felt keenly but partly to
[8:37] grief flowed from trouble in their
[8:38] marriages or relationships they had
[8:40] learned to be receptive
[8:42] but receptivity wasn't enough to carry
[8:44] their marriages through troubled times
[8:46] in every relationship something fierce
[8:48] is needed once in a while
[8:50] both the man and the woman need to have
[8:52] it but at the point when it was needed
[8:55] often the young man came up short he was
[8:57] nurturing
[8:58] but something else was required for his
[9:00] relationship and for his life
[9:03] the journey many american men have taken
[9:05] into softness or receptivity or
[9:08] quote development of the feminine side
[9:10] unquote has been an immensely valuable
[9:12] journey
[9:13] but more travel lies ahead no stage is
[9:16] the final stop
[9:19] one of the fairy tales that speak of a
[9:21] third possibility for men a third mode
[9:23] is a story called iron john or iron hans
[9:27] thought was first set down by the grim
[9:28] brothers around 1820
[9:30] this story could be ten or twenty
[9:32] thousand years old
[9:33] as the story starts we find that
[9:36] something strange has been happening
[9:37] in the remote area of the forest near
[9:39] the king's castle
[9:41] when hunters go into this area they
[9:42] disappear and never come back
[9:44] 20 others go after the first group and
[9:46] do not come back
[9:48] in time people begin to get the feeling
[9:50] that there's something weird in that
[9:51] part of the forest and quote
[9:52] they don't go there anymore unquote one
[9:55] day an unknown hunter shows up at the
[9:57] castle and says
[9:59] uh what can i do anything dangerous to
[10:01] do around here
[10:02] the king says well i could mention the
[10:05] forest but there's a problem
[10:06] the people who go there don't come back
[10:09] the return rate
[10:10] is not good oh that's just the sort of
[10:12] thing i like the young man says
[10:14] so he goes into the forest and
[10:16] interestingly he goes there alone taking
[10:17] only his dog
[10:19] the young man and his dog wander about
[10:21] in the forest and they go past the pond
[10:23] suddenly a hand reaches up from the
[10:25] water grabs the dog and pulls it down
[10:28] the young man doesn't respond by
[10:29] becoming hysterical he merely says
[10:32] this must be the place found as he is of
[10:36] his dog
[10:36] and reluctant as he is to abandon him
[10:38] the hunter goes back to the castle
[10:40] rounds up three more men with buckets
[10:42] and then comes back to the pond to
[10:44] bucket out the water
[10:45] anyone who's ever tried it will quickly
[10:47] note that such bucketing
[10:49] is very slow work in time what they find
[10:52] lying in the bottom of the pond
[10:54] is a large man covered with hair from
[10:56] head to foot the hair is
[10:58] reddish it looks a little like rusty
[11:00] iron
[11:01] they take the man back to the castle and
[11:03] imprison him the king puts him in an
[11:05] iron cage in the courtyard
[11:07] calls him iron john and gives the key
[11:10] into the keeping of the queen
[11:14] let's stop the story here for a second
[11:17] when a contemporary man looks down into
[11:19] his psyche he may if conditions are
[11:21] right
[11:21] find under the water of his soul lying
[11:24] in an area no one has visited for a long
[11:26] time
[11:26] an ancient hairy man the mythological
[11:30] systems associate hair
[11:31] with the instinctive and the sexual and
[11:33] the primitive
[11:35] what i'm suggesting then is that every
[11:37] modern male has
[11:38] lying at the bottom of a psyche a large
[11:41] primitive being
[11:42] covered with hair down to his feet
[11:44] making contact with this wild man
[11:46] is the step the 80s male or the 90s male
[11:49] has yet to take
[11:51] that bucketing out process has yet to
[11:53] begin
[11:54] in our contemporary culture as the story
[11:57] suggests very delicately there's more
[11:59] than little fear around this hairy man
[12:02] as there is around all change when a man
[12:05] begins to develop
[12:06] the receptive side of himself and gets
[12:08] over his initial skittishness
[12:11] he usually finds the experience to be
[12:12] wonderful he gets to write poetry and go
[12:15] out and sit by the ocean
[12:16] he doesn't have to be on top and sex
[12:18] anymore he becomes empathetic
[12:21] it's a new humming surprising world
[12:24] but going down through water to touch
[12:26] the wild man at the bottom of the pond
[12:28] is quite a different matter
[12:29] the being who stands up is frightening
[12:32] and seems even more so now
[12:34] when the corporations do so much work to
[12:36] produce the sanitized hairless
[12:38] shallow man when a man welcomes his
[12:41] responsiveness or what we sometimes call
[12:43] his
[12:43] internal woman he often feels warmer
[12:46] more companionable more alive
[12:48] but when he approaches what i'll call
[12:50] the quotation mark deep mail
[12:52] unquote he feels risk welcoming the
[12:56] hairy man is scary and risky and it
[12:58] requires a different kind of courage
[13:00] contact with iron john requires a
[13:02] willingness to descend
[13:04] into the male psyche and accept what's
[13:06] down there
[13:07] including the nourishing dark
[13:12] now back to the story one day the king's
[13:15] eight-year-old son is playing in the
[13:16] courtyard with a golden ball that he
[13:18] loves
[13:18] and it rolls into the wild man's cage if
[13:21] the young boy wants the ball back he's
[13:23] going to have to approach the hairy man
[13:24] and ask for it
[13:26] but this is going to be a problem the
[13:29] golden ball reminds us of that unity of
[13:31] personality we had as children
[13:33] a kind of radiance or wholeness before
[13:35] we split into male and female rich and
[13:37] poor bad and good
[13:39] the ball is golden as the sun is and
[13:41] round
[13:42] like the sun it gives off a radiant
[13:45] energy from the inside
[13:47] we notice that the boy is eight all of
[13:49] us whether boys or girls lose something
[13:51] around the age of eight
[13:53] if we still have the golden ball in
[13:55] kindergarten we lose it in grade school
[13:57] whatever is still left we lose in high
[13:59] school whether we are male or female
[14:01] once the golden ball
[14:02] is gone we spend the rest of our lives
[14:04] trying to get it back
[14:06] the iron john story proposes that the
[14:08] golden ball lies within the magnetic
[14:10] field of the wild man
[14:12] which is a very hard concept for us to
[14:14] grasp
[14:15] we have to accept the possibility that
[14:17] the true radiant energy
[14:19] in the male does not hide in reside in
[14:22] or wait for us
[14:23] in the feminine realm nor in the macho
[14:26] john wayne realm
[14:27] but in the magnetic field of the deep
[14:30] masculine
[14:31] it is protected by the instinctive one
[14:35] who's underwater and who has been there
[14:37] we don't know how long
[14:40] most men want some nice person to bring
[14:42] the ball back
[14:43] but the story hints that we won't find
[14:45] the golden ball
[14:46] in the force field of an asian guru or
[14:49] even the force field of a gentle jesus
[14:52] our story is not anti-christian but
[14:54] pre-christian by a thousand years or so
[14:57] and its message is still true getting
[14:59] the golden ball back
[15:01] is incompatible with certain kinds of
[15:03] conventional
[15:04] tameness and niceness the first step
[15:08] amounts
[15:08] to approaching the cage and asking for
[15:10] the golden ball back some men are ready
[15:13] to take that step
[15:14] while others haven't yet bucketed the
[15:16] water out of the pond
[15:18] they haven't left the collective male
[15:19] identity and gone out into the unknown
[15:21] area alone or gone only with their dog
[15:24] the story says that after the dog in
[15:26] quotes goes down unquote
[15:28] one has to start to work with buckets no
[15:31] giant is going to come along and suck
[15:33] all the water out for you
[15:35] that magic stuff is not going to help
[15:37] and the weekend at esslin won't do it
[15:39] acid or cocaine won't do it the man has
[15:42] to do it
[15:43] bucket by bucket this resembles the slow
[15:46] discipline of art
[15:47] it's the work that rembrandt did that
[15:49] picasso and yates and wilker and bach
[15:51] did
[15:52] bucket work implies much more discipline
[15:54] than most men realize
[15:56] jung remarked that all successful
[15:58] requests to the psyche
[15:59] involve deals the psyche likes to make
[16:02] deals
[16:03] if a part of you for example is
[16:04] immensely lazy and doesn't want to do
[16:06] any work
[16:07] a flat out new year's resolution won't
[16:09] do any good
[16:10] the whole thing will go better if you
[16:12] say to your lazy part
[16:14] you let me work for an hour and then
[16:15] i'll let you be a slob for now is that a
[16:17] deal
[16:18] so in iron john a deal is made the wild
[16:21] man agrees to give the golden ball back
[16:23] if the boy opens a cage the boy
[16:27] apparently frightened runs off he
[16:29] doesn't even answer
[16:30] isn't that what happens we have been
[16:32] told so often by parents ministers grade
[16:34] school teachers high school principals
[16:36] that we should have nothing to do with
[16:37] the wild man that when he says
[16:40] i'll return the ball if you let me out
[16:42] of the cage
[16:43] we don't even reply
[16:47] maybe 10 years pass now on the second
[16:50] day
[16:52] the man could be twenty five he goes
[16:54] back to the wild man and says
[16:55] could i have my ball back the wild man
[16:58] says yes
[16:59] if you let me out of the cage actually
[17:02] just returning to the wild man a second
[17:04] time is a marvelous thing
[17:06] some men never come back at all the 25
[17:09] year old
[17:10] man hears the sentence all right but by
[17:12] now he has two toyotas and a mortgage
[17:14] maybe a wife and a child how can he let
[17:16] the wild men out of the cage
[17:18] the man usually walks away the second
[17:20] time also without saying a word
[17:23] now ten more years pass let's say the
[17:26] man is now 35
[17:28] have you ever seen the look of dismay on
[17:30] the face of a 35 year old man
[17:32] feeling overworked alienated empty he
[17:35] asked the wild man with full heart this
[17:37] time
[17:37] could i have my golden ball back he
[17:40] asked the wild man says
[17:41] if you let me out of my cage
[17:45] now something marvelous happens in the
[17:47] story the boy speaks to the wild man and
[17:49] continues the conversation
[17:51] he says even if i wanted to let you out
[17:54] i couldn't because i don't know where
[17:55] the key is
[17:57] that's so good by the time we are 35 we
[18:01] don't know where the key is
[18:03] it isn't exactly that we've forgotten we
[18:05] never knew
[18:06] where it was in the first place the
[18:08] story says
[18:09] that when the king locked up the wild
[18:11] man he gave the key into the keeping of
[18:13] the queen
[18:15] but we were only about seven then and in
[18:17] any case our father never told us
[18:19] what he had done with it so where is the
[18:22] key
[18:23] the wild man replies the key is under
[18:27] your mother's pillow
[18:30] getting the key back from under the
[18:31] mother's pillow is a troublesome task
[18:34] freud taking advice from a greek play
[18:36] says that a man should not skip over the
[18:38] mutual attraction between himself and
[18:40] his mother
[18:41] if he wants a long life the mother's
[18:44] pillow after all
[18:45] lies near where she makes love to your
[18:47] father
[18:49] moreover there's another implication
[18:50] attached to the pillow
[18:52] michael mead the storyteller once
[18:54] remarked to me that the pillow is also
[18:56] the place where the mother stores all
[18:58] her expectations of you
[19:00] she dreams my son the doctor my son the
[19:03] union analyst
[19:05] my son the wall street genius but very
[19:08] few mothers dream
[19:09] my son the wild man attacking the mother
[19:12] confronting her shouting at her
[19:14] with some freudians opponent to urge us
[19:16] on probably does not accomplish much
[19:18] she may just smile and talk to you with
[19:21] her elbow
[19:22] and the pillow so the key has to be
[19:25] stolen
[19:26] i recall talking to an audience of men
[19:28] and women once about this problem of
[19:30] stealing the key
[19:31] a young man obviously well trained in
[19:34] new age modes of operation
[19:35] said robert i'm disturbed by this idea
[19:38] of stealing the key
[19:40] stealing isn't right couldn't a group of
[19:42] us just go to the mother and say mom
[19:44] could i have the key back his model was
[19:48] probably
[19:49] consensus work the way the staff at the
[19:52] health food store settles things
[19:54] i felt the souls of all the women in the
[19:56] room rise up in the air to kill him
[19:59] men like that are as dangerous to women
[20:01] as they are to men
[20:03] no mother worth or salt would give the
[20:05] key away anyway if the son can't steal
[20:07] it he doesn't deserve it
[20:09] mothers are intuitively aware of what
[20:11] happens if he got the key
[20:13] they would lose their boys the
[20:15] possessiveness that mothers typically
[20:17] exercise on sons
[20:18] not to mention the possessiveness that
[20:20] fathers typically exercise on daughters
[20:23] can never be underestimated we could
[20:26] spend days talking about how to steal
[20:27] the key in a practical way
[20:29] the story itself leaves everything open
[20:32] and simply says
[20:33] one day he stole the key brought it to
[20:35] the wild man's cage and opened the lock
[20:37] as he did so he pinched one of his
[20:39] fingers
[20:41] that detail will become important in the
[20:43] next part of this story
[20:45] the wild man is then free at last and
[20:47] it's clear that he will go back to his
[20:48] own forest
[20:49] far from the castle
[20:52] the boy in our story or the 35 year old
[20:55] man in our mind
[20:56] however you want to look at it now does
[20:59] something marvelous
[21:00] he speaks to the wild man once more and
[21:01] says wait a minute
[21:03] if my parents come home and find you
[21:05] gone they will beat me
[21:08] that sentence makes the heart sink
[21:10] particularly
[21:11] if we know something about child-rearing
[21:12] practices that have prevailed for a long
[21:14] time in northern europe
[21:16] as alice miller reminds us in her book
[21:18] for your own good
[21:20] child psychologists in 19th century
[21:22] germany
[21:23] warn parents especially about exuberance
[21:27] exuberance in a child is bad and at the
[21:30] first sign of it parents should be
[21:32] severe exuberance implies that the wild
[21:36] man or girl is no longer locked up
[21:38] if they come home and find you gone they
[21:41] will beat me
[21:42] the boy says the wild man says in effect
[21:45] that's good thinking you'd better come
[21:47] with me
[21:49] so the wild man lifts the boy up on his
[21:51] shoulders and together they go off into
[21:52] the woods
[21:53] that's decisive we should all be so
[21:55] lucky
[21:57] as the boy leaves for the forest he has
[21:58] to overcome at least for the moment
[22:01] his fear of wildness irrationality
[22:04] hairiness intuition emotion the body and
[22:07] nature
[22:08] iron john is not as primitive as the boy
[22:10] imagines but the boy
[22:12] or the mind doesn't know that yet
[22:15] still the clean break with the mother
[22:17] and father which the old initiators call
[22:18] for
[22:19] now has taken place iron john says to
[22:21] the boy
[22:22] you'll never see your mother and father
[22:24] again but i have treasures more than
[22:26] you'll ever need
[22:28] so that is that
[22:31] the moment the boy leaves with iron john
[22:33] is the moment in ancient greek life
[22:35] when the priest of dionysius accepted a
[22:37] young man as a student
[22:39] or the moment in eskimo life today when
[22:41] the shaman sometimes entirely covered
[22:43] with the fur of wild animals
[22:45] appears in the village and takes a boy
[22:47] away for spirit instruction
[22:49] in our culture there's no such moment
[22:51] the boys in our culture
[22:52] have a continuing need for initiation
[22:54] into male spirit
[22:55] but old men in general don't offer it
[22:58] the priest sometimes tries but he's too
[23:00] much a part of the corporate village
[23:02] these days
[23:04] the fault of the nuclear family today
[23:05] isn't so much that it's crazy and full
[23:07] of double binds
[23:09] that's true in communes and corporate
[23:11] offices too in fact in any group
[23:13] the fault is that the old man outside
[23:15] the nuclear family
[23:16] no longer offer an effective way for the
[23:18] son to break his link with his parents
[23:20] without doing harm to himself
[23:23] the ancient societies believed that a
[23:25] boy becomes a man only through ritual
[23:27] and effort only through quote active
[23:30] intervention of the older men unquote
[23:33] it's becoming clear to us that manhood
[23:35] doesn't happen by itself
[23:37] it doesn't happen just because we eat
[23:38] wheaties the active intervention of the
[23:41] older men
[23:42] means that the older men welcome the
[23:44] younger man into the ancient
[23:46] mythologized instinctual male world
[23:50] once that welcoming has been done the
[23:52] older men teach him the myths stories
[23:54] and songs that embody distinctly male
[23:56] values
[23:57] i mean not competitive values only but
[23:59] spiritual values
[24:01] once these quote moistening unquote
[24:04] myths
[24:04] are learned the myths themselves lead
[24:06] the young male
[24:08] far beyond his personal father and into
[24:10] the moistness of the swampy fathers
[24:12] who stretch back century after century
[24:15] in the absence of old man's labor
[24:18] consciously done
[24:19] what happens initiation of western men
[24:21] has continued for some time
[24:23] in an altered form even after fanatics
[24:26] destroyed
[24:26] the greek initiatory schools during the
[24:29] 19th century grandfathers and uncles
[24:31] lived in the house
[24:32] and older men mingled a great deal
[24:34] through hunting parties and work that
[24:36] men did together in farms and cottages
[24:38] through local sports
[24:40] older men spent much time with younger
[24:41] men and brought knowledge of male spirit
[24:44] and soul
[24:44] to them much of that chance or
[24:47] incidental mingling has ended
[24:49] men's clubs and societies have steadily
[24:52] disappeared
[24:53] grandfathers live in phoenix or the old
[24:54] people's homes
[24:56] and many boys experience only the
[24:58] companionship of other boys their age
[25:00] who from the point of view of the old
[25:01] initiators know nothing
[25:03] at all during the sixties some young men
[25:06] drew
[25:06] strength from women who in turn had
[25:08] received some of their strength from the
[25:10] women's movement
[25:11] one could say that many young men in the
[25:13] sixties tried to accept initiation from
[25:16] women
[25:17] but only men can initiate men as only
[25:20] women
[25:20] can initiate women so what can be done
[25:25] thousands and thousands of women being
[25:27] single parents or raising boys with no
[25:29] adult man in the house
[25:30] the difficulties inherent in that
[25:32] situation came up one day
[25:34] in evanston when i was giving a talk an
[25:36] initiation of men
[25:38] to a group made up mostly of women
[25:41] women who were raising sons alone were
[25:43] extremely alert to the dangers
[25:45] of no male model one woman declared that
[25:47] she realized about the time her son got
[25:49] to high school age and he needed more
[25:51] hardness
[25:52] than she could naturally give but she
[25:54] said if she made herself harder to meet
[25:56] that
[25:56] need she would lose touch with her own
[25:58] femininity i mentioned the classic
[26:00] solution in many traditional cultures
[26:02] which is
[26:03] to send the boy to his father when he's
[26:04] 12. several women said flatly
[26:06] no men aren't nurturing they wouldn't
[26:08] take care of him
[26:10] many men however and i am one of them
[26:12] have found inside an ability to nurture
[26:14] that didn't appear until it was called
[26:15] for
[26:17] even when the father is living in the
[26:18] house there still may be a strong covert
[26:20] bond between mother and son to evict the
[26:22] father
[26:22] which amounts to a conspiracy and
[26:24] conspiracies are difficult to break
[26:27] one woman with two sons had enjoyed
[26:29] going each year to a convention in san
[26:30] francisco with her husband
[26:32] the boys being lifted home but one
[26:35] spring having just returned from a
[26:37] woman's retreat she felt like being
[26:38] private and said to her husband
[26:40] why don't you take the boys this year so
[26:43] the father did
[26:44] the boys around 10 or 12 and never as it
[26:47] turned out experienced their father's
[26:48] company without the mother's presence
[26:50] after that experience they asked for
[26:51] more time with their dad
[26:53] when the convention time rolled around
[26:55] the following spring the mother once
[26:57] more decided on privacy and the boys
[26:59] once more set off with their father
[27:00] the moment they arrived back home the
[27:02] mother happened to be standing in the
[27:04] kitchen
[27:05] whether back to the door and the older
[27:07] the two boys walked over
[27:09] and put her arms around her from the
[27:10] back without even intending it
[27:13] her body reacted explosively and the boy
[27:15] flew across the room and bounced off the
[27:17] wall
[27:18] when he picked himself up she said their
[27:20] relationship had changed
[27:22] something irrevocable had happened she
[27:25] was glad about the change
[27:26] and the boy seemed surprised and a
[27:28] little relieved
[27:29] that he apparently wasn't needed by her
[27:32] in the old way
[27:34] another woman told a story in which the
[27:36] mother-son conspiracy was broken from
[27:38] the boy's side
[27:39] she was a single parent of a son and two
[27:41] daughters and the girls were doing well
[27:43] but the boy was not at 14 the boy went
[27:45] to live with his father but he stayed
[27:47] only a month or so and then came back
[27:49] when he returned the mother realized
[27:51] that three women in the house
[27:52] amounted to an overbalance of feminine
[27:54] energy for the son
[27:56] but what could she do a week or two went
[27:58] by
[27:59] one night she said to her son john it's
[28:01] time to come to dinner
[28:02] she touched him on the arm and he
[28:04] exploded and she flew against the wall
[28:06] the same sort of explosion as in the
[28:08] earlier story
[28:09] we noticed no intent of abuse either
[28:11] time and no evidence that the event was
[28:13] repeated
[28:14] in each case the psyche or body knew
[28:17] what the mind didn't
[28:18] when the mother picked herself up off
[28:20] the floor she said
[28:22] it's time for you to go back to your
[28:24] father and the boy said
[28:26] you're right the traditional initiation
[28:29] break is preferable and sidesteps the
[28:31] violence
[28:32] but all over the country now one sees
[28:34] hulking sons acting ugly in the kitchen
[28:36] and talking rudely to their mothers and
[28:38] i think it's an attempt to make
[28:40] themselves unattractive
[28:42] if the old men haven't done their work
[28:44] to interrupt the mother-son unity
[28:46] what else can the boys do to extricate
[28:48] themselves but to talk ugly
[28:50] it's quite unconscious and there's no
[28:51] elegance in it at all
[28:53] a clean break from the mother is crucial
[28:55] but it's simply not happening
[28:57] this doesn't mean that the women are
[28:59] doing something wrong i think the
[29:00] problem is more
[29:01] that the older men are not really doing
[29:04] their job
[29:06] the traditional way of raising sons
[29:08] which lasted for thousands and thousands
[29:10] of years
[29:11] amounted to fathers and sons living in
[29:13] close murderously close proximity
[29:16] while the father taught the son of trade
[29:18] perhaps farming or
[29:19] carpentry or blacksmithing or tailoring
[29:22] the love unit most damaged by the
[29:24] industrial revolution has been the
[29:26] father-son
[29:27] bond there's no sense in idealizing
[29:30] pre-industrial culture
[29:32] yet we know that today many fathers now
[29:34] work 30 or 50 miles from the house
[29:36] and by the time they return at night the
[29:38] children are often in bed and they
[29:39] themselves are too tired to do active
[29:41] fathering
[29:42] the german psychologist alexander
[29:44] mitchell writes about this father-son
[29:46] crisis in his book called
[29:48] society without the father the gist of
[29:51] his idea
[29:52] is that if the son does not actually see
[29:54] what his father does
[29:56] during the day and through all the
[29:57] seasons of the year
[29:59] a whole will appear in the sun psyche
[30:01] and the whole will fill with demons
[30:04] who tell him that his father's work is
[30:06] evil and the father is evil
[30:09] the son's fear that the absent father is
[30:11] evil contributed to student takeovers
[30:14] in the sixties rebellious students at
[30:17] columbia university
[30:18] took over the president's office looking
[30:20] for evidence of cia involvement with the
[30:22] university
[30:23] the students fear that their own fathers
[30:25] were evil was transferred to all male
[30:27] figures in authority
[30:30] a university like a father looks upright
[30:32] and decent on the outside but underneath
[30:34] somewhere you have the feeling that it
[30:36] and he are doing something demonic
[30:38] that feeling becomes intolerable because
[30:40] the son's
[30:41] inner intuitions become incongruous with
[30:44] outer appearances
[30:45] the unconscious intuitions come in not
[30:47] because the father is wicked
[30:49] but because the father's remote young
[30:52] people
[30:53] go to the trouble of invading the
[30:54] president's office to bridge this
[30:56] incongruity
[30:57] the country being what it is
[30:59] occasionally they do find letters from
[31:00] the cia
[31:01] but this doesn't satisfy the deeper
[31:03] longing the need of the son's body
[31:06] to be closer to the father's body when
[31:09] the demons are so suspicious
[31:11] how can the son later make any good
[31:13] connection with adult male energy
[31:15] especially the energy of an adult man in
[31:17] the position of authority
[31:18] or leadership as a musician he will
[31:21] smash handcrafted guitars made by old
[31:23] men
[31:24] as a citizen he will take part in
[31:26] therapy rather than politics
[31:28] he will feel pure when not in authority
[31:32] there's a general assumption now that
[31:34] every man in a position of power is or
[31:36] will soon be corrupt and oppressive
[31:38] yet the greeks understood and praised
[31:40] the positive male energy
[31:42] that has accepted authority they called
[31:44] it zeus energy
[31:45] which encompasses intelligence robust
[31:48] health
[31:49] compassionate decisiveness good will
[31:52] generous leadership
[31:54] zeus energy is male authority accepted
[31:57] for the sake of the community
[31:59] zeus energy has been steadily
[32:01] disintegrating decade after decade in
[32:03] the united states
[32:04] popular culture has been determined to
[32:06] destroy respect for it
[32:08] beginning with the maggie and jiggs and
[32:09] blondie and dagwood comics
[32:11] of the 1920s and 1930s in which a man is
[32:14] always weak and foolish
[32:15] from there the image of the weak adult
[32:17] man went into animated cartoons
[32:19] the father in contemporary tv ads never
[32:22] knows what cold medicine to take
[32:25] and in situation comedies the cosby show
[32:27] notwithstanding
[32:28] men are devious bumbling or easy to
[32:30] outwit
[32:31] it is the women who outwit them and
[32:33] teach them a lesson
[32:35] or hold the whole town together all by
[32:37] themselves
[32:40] this is not exactly what people want
[32:42] many young hollywood writers
[32:44] rather than confronting their fathers in
[32:46] kansas take revenge
[32:48] on the remote father by making all adult
[32:50] men look like fools
[32:52] they attack the respect for masculine
[32:54] integrity that every father
[32:56] underneath wants to pass on to his
[32:58] grandchildren and great-grandchildren
[33:01] by contrast in traditional cultures the
[33:04] older men
[33:04] and the older women often are the first
[33:06] to speak in public gatherings
[33:08] younger men may say nothing but still
[33:10] aim to maintain contact with the older
[33:12] men
[33:13] now we have 27 year olds engaged in
[33:16] hostile takeovers
[33:18] who will buy out a publishing house and
[33:20] dismantle in six months
[33:21] what an older man has created over a
[33:23] period of 30 years
[33:26] jung said that when the son is
[33:28] introduced primarily
[33:29] by the mother to feeling he will learn
[33:32] the female attitude towards masculinity
[33:35] and he will take a female view of his
[33:37] own father and of his own masculinity
[33:40] he will see the father through the
[33:42] mother's eyes
[33:45] a friend of mine mentioned that he
[33:47] realized when he became about 35
[33:50] that he didn't really know his father
[33:53] his father had been living in seattle
[33:55] for 10 years or so so he flew to seattle
[33:58] one day
[33:59] went to his father's house knocked on
[34:01] the door
[34:02] and when his father came said to him i
[34:05] want you to know
[34:06] that i don't accept my mother's view of
[34:09] you anymore
[34:11] i said to him what did the father do he
[34:14] said well
[34:15] my father burst into tears and then said
[34:19] now i can die
[34:22] since the father and the mother are in
[34:24] competition for the affection of the son
[34:27] you're not going to get a straight
[34:28] picture of your father out of your
[34:29] mother
[34:30] nor will you get a straight picture of
[34:32] your mother out of your father
[34:35] some mothers send out messages that
[34:37] civilization
[34:38] and culture and feeling and
[34:39] relationships are things which the
[34:42] mother and the daughter
[34:43] or the mother and the sensitive son
[34:45] share in common
[34:46] whereas the father stands for and
[34:48] embodies what is stiff maybe brutal
[34:51] what is unfeeling obsessed rationalistic
[34:54] money mad uncompassionate so the son
[34:57] often goes up with the wounded image of
[34:58] his father
[34:59] not brought about necessarily by the
[35:01] father's actions or words
[35:03] but based on the mother's observation of
[35:05] these words or actions
[35:06] i am not saying that all fathers are
[35:08] good mothers can be right about the
[35:10] father's negative side
[35:11] but the woman can also be judgmental
[35:14] about masculine traits that are merely
[35:16] different or unexpected
[35:19] eventually a man needs to throw off all
[35:21] indoctrination and begin to discover for
[35:24] himself
[35:24] what the father is and what masculinity
[35:26] is for that task
[35:28] ancient stories are a good help because
[35:31] they are free of modern psychological
[35:33] prejudices
[35:34] because they have endured the scrutiny
[35:35] of generations of women and men
[35:37] and because they give both the light and
[35:40] dark sides of manhood
[35:41] the admirable and the dangerous
[35:45] these powerful energies inside men are
[35:48] lying like iron john
[35:49] in pawns we haven't walked past yet
[35:52] it is good that the divine is associated
[35:55] with the virgin mary
[35:56] and the blissful jesus but we can sense
[35:59] how different it would be for young men
[36:01] if we lived in a culture where the
[36:03] divine was also associated
[36:05] with the being entirely underwater
[36:08] covered with hair
[36:10] when a man gets in touch with a wild man
[36:13] a true strength may be added
[36:15] he's able to shout and say what he wants
[36:17] to say
[36:18] in a way that the 60s or 70s man is not
[36:21] able to
[36:23] the ability of a man to shout and to be
[36:24] fierce does not imply domination
[36:27] treating people as if they were objects
[36:28] demanding land or empire holding on to
[36:30] the cold war the whole model of machismo
[36:33] women in the 1970s needed to develop
[36:36] what is known in the indian tradition
[36:38] as kali energy the ability to say what
[36:40] they want
[36:41] to dance with skulls around their neck
[36:42] to cut relationships when they need to
[36:45] men need to make a parallel connection
[36:47] with the harsh dionysius energy that the
[36:50] indians call
[36:51] kala our story says that the first step
[36:54] is to find the wild man lying at the
[36:56] bottom of the pond
[36:58] we could ask why not stop here we have a
[37:01] young man who has stolen the key from
[37:03] under his mother's pillow
[37:04] he has escaped from mother and father
[37:06] and he is in touch with the wild man
[37:08] and through him the wilderness like huck
[37:11] finn he has started quote down the
[37:13] mississippi on quote
[37:14] on a raft with a companion from a
[37:16] different world
[37:18] but if our story describes initiation we
[37:20] know we have still to deal
[37:22] with some sort of wound the breaking of
[37:25] a bone
[37:26] a puncture to the skin a making of wound
[37:28] patterns in the body that's all part of
[37:30] it
[37:31] mirchia eliadi in his reports of
[37:33] initiation experiences
[37:35] in dozens of cultures all over the world
[37:37] mentions that the initiation of boys
[37:39] begins with two events
[37:40] the first is a clean break with the
[37:42] parents after which the novice goes to
[37:44] the forest
[37:45] desert or wilderness the second is a
[37:47] wound
[37:48] that the older men give the boy which
[37:50] could be a scarring of the skin
[37:52] a cut with a knife a brushing with
[37:54] nettles a tooth knocked out
[37:56] but we mustn't leave to the assumption
[37:57] that the injuries are given sadistically
[38:00] initiators of young men in most cultures
[38:02] make sure
[38:03] that the injuries they give do not lead
[38:05] to meaningless pain
[38:06] but reverberate out from a rich center
[38:09] of meaning
[38:10] early adolescence is the time
[38:12] traditionally chosen for initiation to
[38:14] begin
[38:15] and we all recall how many injuries we
[38:17] received at that age
[38:18] something in the adolescent male wants
[38:20] risk courts danger goes out to the edge
[38:23] even to the edge of death in our story
[38:26] then the boy's finger
[38:28] hints of wounds each of us have already
[38:30] received
[38:31] in our attempts to let the wild man out
[38:33] of the cage
[38:34] old men don't give us the wound we do it
[38:37] ourselves
[38:38] whether the old man of the past scars
[38:40] with the seashell or tattoo us painfully
[38:42] or we do it ourselves the scar stands
[38:45] for a wound
[38:46] that's already there some missing tooth
[38:49] that we've each felt with our tongues
[38:51] the wounded finger in our story stands
[38:54] for wound
[38:54] most young men in our culture have
[38:56] already received
[38:59] let's go back then to the story
[39:01] [Music]
[39:05] we are leaving our time now
[39:10] there are places where time moves more
[39:12] slowly than here
[39:17] we honor all four directions east west
[39:22] north south
[39:25] and we also under the fifth direction
[39:27] the vertical one
[39:29] which is in us here today
[39:35] when the wild man had reached the dark
[39:37] forest once more
[39:38] he took the boy from his shoulders put
[39:41] him down in the earth and said
[39:43] you will never see your mother and
[39:44] father again but i will keep you with me
[39:47] for you have set me free and i feel
[39:50] compassion for you
[39:52] if you do everything as i tell you all
[39:54] will go well
[39:56] i have much gold and treasure more than
[39:58] anyone else
[40:00] in the world
[40:04] the wild man prepared a bed of moss for
[40:06] the boy to sleep on
[40:07] and in the morning and took him to a
[40:09] spring do you see this golden spring
[40:12] it is clear as crystal and full of light
[40:14] i want you to sit beside it and make
[40:17] sure that nothing falls into it
[40:19] because if that happens it will wrong
[40:21] the spring
[40:22] i'll return each evening to see if
[40:24] you've obeyed my order
[40:26] the boy sat down at the spring's edge
[40:28] occasionally
[40:29] he glimpsed a golden fish or a gold
[40:31] snake
[40:32] and he took care to let nothing fall in
[40:35] but as he sat there
[40:36] his wounded finger was so painful
[40:40] that without intending to he dipped it
[40:42] into the water
[40:43] he pulled it out instantly but he saw
[40:45] that the finger turned to gold
[40:47] and no matter how much he washed it the
[40:49] washing did no good
[40:51] ion john came back that evening and said
[40:54] anything happened with this spring today
[40:56] the boy held his finger behind his back
[40:58] to keep iron john from seeing it and he
[41:00] said
[41:00] no nothing at all ah you've dipped your
[41:04] finger in the spring said the wild man
[41:07] we can let it pass this once but don't
[41:09] let that happen
[41:10] again now
[41:13] if we are to live in this story rather
[41:16] than merely observe it
[41:17] we have to ask ourselves what wound do
[41:20] we have
[41:21] that hurts so much that we have to dip
[41:23] it in the water
[41:25] initiation then for young men amounts to
[41:28] helping them remember the wound
[41:30] and by that we mean the soul wounds or
[41:33] the injuries to the emotional body
[41:35] sometimes the outward scars exist to
[41:37] remind us of inward scars
[41:40] some blow usually comes from the father
[41:43] one way or another
[41:44] not receiving any blessing from your
[41:46] father is an injury
[41:48] not seeing your father when you are
[41:50] small never being with him
[41:52] having a remote father an absent father
[41:54] a workaholic father
[41:56] is an injury michael mead found an
[41:59] african story
[42:00] in which the hunter father takes his boy
[42:02] hunting with him one day
[42:03] having killed a small rat he asked the
[42:05] boy to keep it
[42:07] the son in the story says thinking it
[42:10] was nothing
[42:10] threw it in a bush no more game comes
[42:14] along that day in the dust the father
[42:15] asked the boy
[42:16] for the rats so they can cook it and
[42:17] have something to eat the boy says to
[42:20] the father
[42:21] i threw it in the bush then according to
[42:24] the story
[42:25] quote the father took up his axe and hid
[42:26] his son who was knocked unconscious
[42:28] and the father then left the boy lying
[42:30] where he was
[42:33] men who hear this incident know in the
[42:35] most astonishing detail where that axe
[42:37] blow hit
[42:38] one man says the axe hit on the left
[42:40] side of his head
[42:41] another said it landed in a chest area
[42:44] another in my groin and so on and so on
[42:46] almost every man remembers that blow
[42:48] coming in
[42:50] so this event seems to be a part of
[42:52] father-son material
[42:54] the father gives a blow and the son gets
[42:56] it and it's a wound the boy remembers
[42:58] for years
[43:00] and what of the blows from the mother oh
[43:02] you're very fail you know you shouldn't
[43:04] play with those boys
[43:05] if you don't stop that i'll send you to
[43:07] a foster home see how you like that
[43:10] now you're acting just like your father
[43:13] the father gives his son a vivid and
[43:15] unforgettable blow with an axe
[43:16] which has the hint of murder in it many
[43:19] a mother makes sure the son
[43:20] receives the baptism of shame she keeps
[43:23] pouring the water of shame over his head
[43:25] to make sure
[43:27] these wounds come into us whether we
[43:29] honor our parents or not
[43:31] whether we are good or bad many of them
[43:34] we can describe
[43:35] as wounds to our grandiosity
[43:38] when we are tiny we have the feeling
[43:40] that we are god
[43:42] our kingly life in the womb pointed to
[43:44] some such possibility
[43:46] and if anyone once we're out tries to
[43:48] tell us we are not god
[43:50] we don't hear it this early sense of our
[43:53] godliness we could call
[43:55] infantile grandiosity and we need to
[43:57] distinguish that from greatness
[43:59] or true grandiosity or grandeur which is
[44:02] a part of us also
[44:04] at any rate as adolescents we still have
[44:07] enough
[44:07] infantile grandiosity so we imagine we
[44:10] can decide whether the rat is big enough
[44:12] to keep or not
[44:13] then when the father hits us with an axe
[44:16] and leaves us lying in the ground
[44:18] we find our condition wounded on the
[44:20] ground
[44:21] difficult to reconcile with our fantasy
[44:24] of princehood we usually solve the
[44:27] problem by inflating ourselves further
[44:29] a little ascension takes us above it all
[44:33] perhaps some grandiosity or godlikeness
[44:35] is useful in protecting ourselves when
[44:37] we are very young
[44:38] alice miller remarks that when abuse
[44:41] enters
[44:42] when the parents do cruelties the child
[44:44] cannot imagine any parent doing
[44:46] it takes either a grandiose road or
[44:48] depressed rune
[44:50] if we take the grandiose road we climb
[44:52] up above the wound
[44:53] and above the shame perhaps we do get
[44:56] good grades
[44:57] become the one in the family hired to be
[44:59] cheerful become a sort of doctor of our
[45:01] own suffering
[45:02] take care of others something prodigious
[45:04] carries us away
[45:05] we can be cheerful but not very human
[45:08] if we take the depressed road we live
[45:11] inside the wound and inside the shame
[45:14] we are actually closer to the wound than
[45:16] those on the grandiose path
[45:18] but we are not necessarily more human
[45:21] the victim
[45:22] is an imposing person too the victim
[45:25] accepts the crown of victimhood becomes
[45:27] a prince and princess in another way
[45:29] sometimes men with no fathers take these
[45:45] roads
[49:00] you