Transcript
[0:07] we are leaving our time
[0:11] now we're leaving our time
[0:17] now we are going to a time that's slower
[0:20] than
[0:20] ours or faster than
[0:23] ours it's upon our time or below our
[0:27] time or in our time
[0:30] around our
[0:38] time and we honor space Also we honor
[0:41] the four directions
[0:44] east
[0:45] west north
[0:49] south and we honor the fifth Direction
[0:53] which is inside
[0:55] us inside our bodies tonight
[1:02] once upon a
[1:03] [Music]
[1:06] time once upon a time there's a king and
[1:08] the
[1:10] Queen and they lived in a
[1:15] castle but near the castle there was a
[1:18] forest in the old days there was always
[1:20] a force near the
[1:21] [Music]
[1:23] castle but this was a little unusual in
[1:26] that whoever went into that Forest never
[1:29] came back
[1:32] 30 Hunters went out one day and they
[1:33] didn't come
[1:37] back later about 25 Hunters went they
[1:40] didn't come
[1:42] back about 40 Hunters were sent after
[1:44] them and they didn't come back
[1:49] either so what happened was they simply
[1:51] let that part of the force
[1:56] be lots of other for
[2:01] no one entered that one anymore and this
[2:03] went on for a long time no one entered
[2:06] that Forest
[2:08] anymore only occasionally a hawk or an
[2:11] eagle flew over it only occasionally a
[2:15] hawk or an eagle flew over it so that
[2:19] was a situation remained that way a long
[2:21] time and one day something
[2:24] changed a young Hunter came and he
[2:27] said is there anything around here that
[2:30] when we shouldn't
[2:35] do king said yes there is but I uh it's
[2:39] a little journey but the return rate is
[2:41] not very
[2:44] good I don't advise it he said that's
[2:47] the sort of thing that I enjoy I'll do
[2:50] it so he went out into the forest and he
[2:52] took with him only his
[2:54] dog he went to loone that
[2:58] one course that's different than
[3:00] watching a desert this is entering a
[3:07] forest so he went into the forest and
[3:09] when he' got in a
[3:11] while they passed a pond and a hand came
[3:15] up out of the pond and grabbed the dog
[3:17] and pulled him
[3:21] down so the young Hunter didn't go all
[3:24] hysterical he said this must be the
[3:27] place
[3:34] and then he went back to the castle and
[3:36] he got three buckets and two other men
[3:38] and they began to bucket out that
[3:43] pond that is slow
[3:47] work this part of the story might take
[3:49] you through
[3:51] years they bucketed out the pond and
[3:54] when they bucketed it out they found on
[3:56] the bottom a large man entirely covered
[4:00] with hair that was Rusty
[4:03] colored reddish Rusty colored lying in
[4:06] the
[4:10] bottom well we don't like that sort of
[4:17] person so they took the wild man and
[4:20] they bound him with ropes and they
[4:22] brought him back to the castle and they
[4:24] put him in an iron cage in the courtyard
[4:30] and they called him my own John that was
[4:33] pretty
[4:37] goodan prefers to have him in Arabia or
[4:45] somewhere so now we come to the next
[4:47] part of the
[4:49] story it turns out there's an eighty old
[4:51] boy in that
[4:54] castle one day the 8-year-old boy was
[4:56] playing with his Golden Ball
[5:01] the Golden Ball stands in the way for
[5:03] that wonderful Unity that we had before
[5:05] we went to
[5:07] school before male and female were split
[5:11] before up and down were
[5:13] split before we got ashamed of
[5:18] ourselves and these my children think
[5:21] they'll never lose that ball you know
[5:23] they throw it up in the air and catch it
[5:25] remember the girl playing by the Frog
[5:28] Pond and the Frog came
[5:32] this ball rolled into the wild man's
[5:34] cage and the boy said could I have my
[5:37] golden ball back
[5:41] please wild man said yes if you let me
[5:44] out of my
[5:47] cage what did the boy
[5:50] say he didn't even answer he ran
[5:53] away when we told all our lives do not
[5:56] let the Wild Man Out Of The Cage
[6:02] so that went on quite a
[6:04] while a day in a fairy story is like 5
[6:07] years maybe
[6:10] 10 so the boy came back in our time he
[6:15] might be 23 now and he says to the wild
[6:18] man can I have my golden ball
[6:24] back wild man said yes if you let me out
[6:27] of the cage
[6:32] he's already buying a car in a
[6:36] house how can he do it no way no way no
[6:41] way doesn't even answer but the grief on
[6:45] the male's face gets
[6:50] deeper finally on the third day in the
[6:53] fairy
[6:54] story The Boy Goes to the wild man and
[6:57] says could I have my golden ball back
[7:00] the wild man says yes if you let me out
[7:02] of my
[7:07] cage wonderful thing
[7:10] happens the boy says to the wild man
[7:13] even if I wanted to let you out of the
[7:15] cage I don't know where the key
[7:18] is I don't know where the key
[7:24] is I said in the beginning of the story
[7:27] you know that when the king locked him
[7:28] up in the courtyard he gave the key into
[7:29] the the keeping of the
[7:31] queen but where is it castles are
[7:38] big sometimes I've asked an audience
[7:40] where is the key and they say it's Sur
[7:41] around the boy's
[7:42] neck it's in the Golden
[7:44] Ball it's on the floor of the cave a
[7:48] cage it's in the
[7:54] kitchen well and photograph alum
[8:04] so the wild man
[8:06] said the key is under your mother's
[8:13] pillow that's where Freud said it
[8:21] was it's under your mother's
[8:25] pillow in that soft warm place there
[8:33] near where she makes love with her
[8:37] husband so possibly there's a little Ed
[8:39] belonging
[8:42] there also your mother raed you to be a
[8:44] nice
[8:46] boy that's the same thing is saying the
[8:48] key to the wild man is under your
[8:50] mother's
[8:57] pillow what did he do he waited one day
[8:59] till his parents were gone that's what
[9:00] Jo tonelli says always steal the key on
[9:03] the day your parents are gone sometimes
[9:04] they're
[9:07] gone so he took the key and he brought
[9:10] it over to the cage and he opened it but
[9:14] you know a funny thing happened don't
[9:16] know how it
[9:17] happened but he got a wound on his
[9:19] finger that
[9:22] day maybe he'd been with his mother so
[9:24] much he didn't realize how hard iron
[9:28] it or May maybe it hadn't been open for
[9:32] a
[9:32] while he got a little wound on his
[9:35] finger that you're going to notice in
[9:37] the next part of the
[9:40] story and the wild man walked out and
[9:43] started going away back to his forest
[9:46] and the boy did something wonderful
[9:48] again he spoke a second time to the wild
[9:51] man and he said wait if my parents come
[9:55] home and you are out of your cage they
[9:58] will beat me
[10:05] and if you read histories of child
[10:07] wearing in Germany in the 19th century
[10:08] you know what he
[10:11] means if the wild man is out of the cage
[10:14] when my parents come home they will beat
[10:19] me wild man said that's good
[10:22] thinking you're right about
[10:26] that so I think I better take you with
[10:28] me and he put him up on his shoulder and
[10:31] take him off to the
[10:33] force and that's the end of the first
[10:36] section of the
[10:38] story we'll talk about it a bit when I
[10:41] end the next
[10:42] section but what you just saw is a group
[10:45] of male initiators taking off the young
[10:50] boy what you just saw is a clean break
[10:52] with the mother
[10:55] clean which is what was required in all
[10:57] ancient initiation ceremonies say
[10:59] performed at this day in places like new
[11:02] begin boy's left with his mother until
[11:04] he's between 8 and 12 then men come in
[11:06] with spes one night and take
[11:09] him and he doesn't S among the hes he
[11:11] doesn't see his mother for a year and a
[11:13] half to this
[11:21] day but which one of us has had luck
[11:33] nobody some
[11:36] do some will get a strong male
[11:39] Mentor will help them move away from
[11:41] both the father and the
[11:43] mother but for most of us it's just a
[11:45] refrigerator
[11:48] forever hi Mom how are
[11:53] you are you ready to go on to the second
[11:55] part
[11:58] now well
[12:00] they went to the wild man's place in the
[12:03] forest and you must know if you were
[12:06] your great great great great great great
[12:08] great grandfather you know this very
[12:09] well and your great great great great
[12:11] great great great great
[12:12] grandmother all through the Middle Ages
[12:15] they knew very well that there's a
[12:17] spring at the center of the
[12:20] forest a holy spring guarded by the wild
[12:24] man sometimes by the wild man and the
[12:26] wild woman
[12:28] together so related to the Irish holy
[12:31] [Music]
[12:34] Springs so the man took him
[12:36] there when they get up in the morning he
[12:39] said no I want you to understand you'll
[12:41] never see your father and mother
[12:44] again turned out not to be true in this
[12:47] case but it's important that you leave
[12:49] that feeling anyway you'll never see
[12:52] your father and your mother
[12:53] [Music]
[12:55] again but don't worry
[13:00] I will take care of
[13:02] you then he brought him over to the edge
[13:04] of the Holy spring and in it there was a
[13:06] golden snakes and golden
[13:10] fish and he said I want you to guard
[13:13] this Pond and not let anything fall in
[13:15] can you do
[13:16] that oh yes I'm good
[13:20] it I'm going away don't let anything
[13:22] fall in the pond or touch the water oh I
[13:25] won't I
[13:28] won't well what do you happened he sat
[13:31] by the pond and he did pretty well in
[13:33] the
[13:35] morning but you know about 2:00 our
[13:37] Consciousness gets a little
[13:39] L and his finger hurt you remember the
[13:44] finger and the story says
[13:47] automatically mechanically it says
[13:50] without
[13:51] thinking he put his finger into the
[13:53] water and suddenly the tip of it turned
[13:56] gold tip of it turned gold and he pulled
[13:58] it out
[14:01] when the wild man came home he said to
[14:03] him you let something fall into the
[14:05] water I've held it this afternoon about
[14:08] 3:00 let's see
[14:16] it don't do it
[14:19] again
[14:21] tomorrow oh I won't I
[14:26] won't so the wild man goes off again and
[14:28] leaves him there by the pond and says do
[14:30] not let anything fall into this
[14:33] water he's not going to do
[14:36] it thinks about his finger going to keep
[14:38] that finger out of
[14:40] [Music]
[14:42] there and his alertness stays until
[14:45] maybe
[14:46] [Music]
[14:48] 230 and you know it's such a simple
[14:51] thing to do I mean your finger hurts a
[14:52] little so what do you do you run it
[14:55] through your
[14:56] hair isn't that right
[14:59] went it through your hair like this he
[15:01] did that and a single hair fell down
[15:04] into the pond and turned gold boom he
[15:06] pulled it out too late it was all gold
[15:08] one hair was
[15:14] gold when the wild man he came home he
[15:16] said I felt something about 3:00 this
[15:19] afternoon go into the pond let's see
[15:24] it now
[15:26] listen one more time
[15:29] you understand each of these could take
[15:31] 5 10 years these little
[15:35] stages one more
[15:37] [Music]
[15:39] time this this this day is so
[15:43] beautiful
[15:45] incredible so he's determined now so he
[15:49] keeps his
[15:51] hand behind his
[15:53] back all
[15:55] day he stands by the pond looking
[16:01] and then maybe it was three or 4 I don't
[16:03] know
[16:05] when he was standing like this and he
[16:07] looked down and he saw his own face in
[16:08] the
[16:13] water that's kind of a wonderful
[16:16] moment was so used to looking at other
[16:18] people's
[16:20] faces he looked down he saw his own face
[16:23] in the water and then what he did was he
[16:26] land over more and more you know why
[16:29] because because he wanted to look into
[16:30] his own
[16:34] eyes looking into other people's eyes is
[16:36] wonderful it last you about 34
[16:40] years then eventually you want to look
[16:43] into your own
[16:45] eyes and so he leaned over farther and
[16:48] farther so that he could look into his
[16:51] own eyes and when he was down just like
[16:54] this all the hair fell down over his
[16:56] shoulders into the water and the whole
[16:57] head of hair turned go
[17:00] woo his whole head of hair turned gold
[17:04] and what he did was he bounded in a
[17:06] bandana immediately and tied it
[17:09] up he bound it in a bandana and he tied
[17:12] it
[17:13] up and when the wild man came home he
[17:20] [Music]
[17:22] said you let something fall into the
[17:24] water what's that weird bandana around
[17:26] your head
[17:32] wild man said keep the bandana
[17:36] on but you'll have to leave
[17:40] now you'll have to leave
[17:43] now you'll have to leave me
[17:47] now now you're seeing the
[17:49] initiator letting the student go not
[17:53] holding them the way so many of the
[17:55] gurus
[17:56] do letting him go
[18:01] that's
[18:03] important and he says to the
[18:06] boy I'm sending you out into the
[18:09] world because now you know a lot about
[18:11] gold but you know nothing about
[18:15] poverty beautiful huh you know a lot
[18:18] about gold now everybody in the United
[18:21] States now loads a lot about gold they
[18:23] all read the Tibetan Book of the
[18:25] Dead R May
[18:28] Caston everybody knows a lot about gold
[18:31] but he said you don't know anything
[18:32] about
[18:37] poverty that's outward poverty I think
[18:40] and inward
[18:41] too how can you possibly believe that
[18:44] you're poor inwardly when you got all
[18:45] those books in your
[18:49] bookshelf you know a lot about gold but
[18:52] you don't know anything about
[18:54] poverty so I'm sending you out now but
[18:57] don't worry
[19:00] I have more gold and silver than you
[19:01] will ever
[19:02] need and whenever you want me come to
[19:06] the edge of the forest and call I on
[19:07] John ion John I on John three times and
[19:10] I'll
[19:10] [Music]
[19:12] come so that's the end of that part of
[19:14] the story there are five parts of this
[19:17] story this is the second part maybe 6
[19:21] months from now I'll come and tell you
[19:22] the third
[19:23] part we'll talk about it if you want to
[19:26] read the whole story you'll find it in
[19:28] Grim Brothers under the title iron
[19:31] hunts or you could just let it be a
[19:34] [Music]
[19:37] surprise now that's the end of the
[19:39] second part of the story so I think we
[19:41] landed here with apologies to the
[19:46] story stories don't like to be broken
[19:48] off in the middle you
[19:51] know in the old days they would start at
[19:53] 8 9:00 in the morning they still do it
[19:56] in Persian
[19:57] Arabia and The Story Goes on it finishes
[19:59] about 10 and then it says oh and then
[20:01] the grandmother came in and she said
[20:03] this oh my God it starts over again goes
[20:06] on and another story starts at two it
[20:07] goes on all
[20:10] day but we all got things to
[20:14] do all
[20:15] [Music]
[20:23] right so I don't think we'll go in much
[20:26] into the first half I gave you a few
[20:28] hints of the way I look at that first
[20:32] half that first
[20:37] section and I think
[20:40] [Music]
[20:42] um the most important detail I think in
[20:45] it is stealing the key from under the
[20:47] mother's pillow isn't
[20:50] it how to do that what does that
[20:53] mean I told the men this week that I I I
[20:57] gave this story once out in Whitby
[20:58] Island near Seattle and uh there's about
[21:03] 700 people there and there's a young man
[21:04] sitting over here and he spoke up at
[21:06] this point he said Robert
[21:08] um do you think it's necessary to steal
[21:11] it I mean don't you think that we could
[21:13] make some kind of Cooperative
[21:15] arrangement with the mother sort of go
[21:18] and say you know
[21:20] Mom that's way they the people primitive
[21:22] people do it you know they don't don't
[21:24] they never do anything they always have
[21:26] endless meetings of the commune you know
[21:30] so he said that he said don't you think
[21:32] why do we have to steal it couldn't we
[21:34] just make an arrangement and I saw the
[21:36] souls of every woman in that room lift
[21:38] up out of her chair and go over and try
[21:39] to kill
[21:41] him he could feel the
[21:45] movement cuz a man like that is very
[21:47] dangerous to
[21:50] women and um and it was late in the
[21:53] afternoon and I was out of my mind
[21:55] anyway and and so I was uh you know you
[21:58] finally can't answer questions and I
[22:00] said go ahead live off women the rest of
[22:02] your life if you want to do it I noticed
[22:05] he looked a little
[22:07] pale and then someone told me later the
[22:10] woman sitting next to him he had been
[22:11] living off the last four
[22:15] years so living off women is the same
[22:18] thing is not stealing the key isn't it
[22:20] he going to transfer it
[22:23] over
[22:24] so things like this cut pretty deep
[22:30] well
[22:32] so and then the gorgeous detail of being
[22:34] carried off by the boy carried off by
[22:36] the wild man isn't that lovely lovely
[22:39] you're also seeing the priest of
[22:40] dionisius take a young boy the priest of
[22:43] Apollo in Greek times when you wanted to
[22:46] grow in a certain way there were there
[22:47] were six seven or eight fully developed
[22:50] males they were called Greek gods but
[22:53] they were models of the male psyche
[22:55] fully developed and you had an instinct
[22:58] as to which one was one for you and they
[23:01] would have their priest and you would go
[23:02] with
[23:03] them sometimes you might go with the
[23:04] dionis for a while and then after 8 nine
[23:06] years you might go with Apollo and the
[23:09] women
[23:10] also women might go with aidite it was
[23:13] dangerous to stay with aphid very long
[23:16] they might move over to Athena then
[23:18] which is a which is a a goddess of
[23:20] tremendous
[23:23] Consciousness and if a woman wasn't with
[23:25] damer in heavy Earth stuff in the
[23:27] beginning she might move up to
[23:30] so that's the way they live that's not
[23:32] the way we live we just stagger from one
[23:34] McDonald's to the
[23:45] next so um let's go on to the second
[23:49] part of the story
[23:50] now this uh situation which he brings
[23:53] the boy to the Pod and leaves him there
[23:55] and says don't let anything fall in the
[23:57] water
[23:59] and
[24:01] um why is there a wound and why is the
[24:03] wound in the
[24:07] finger well I remember telling this
[24:09] story and I said uh to the audience why
[24:11] is there a wound here and the woman said
[24:14] um whenever you're doing something
[24:17] serious and important there's always a
[24:19] wound
[24:20] involved you can't escape out of your
[24:22] old habits without a wound you hear what
[24:24] you're
[24:24] saying it's going to be a wound whatever
[24:28] you do that's movement there's going to
[24:29] be a
[24:30] wound
[24:32] so
[24:33] um so I think that's
[24:37] right
[24:39] so what is the
[24:42] wound well as I mentioned releasing the
[24:44] wild man is really the same thing as
[24:46] stopping be a mother's
[24:48] boy and you have to give up that
[24:50] admiration you got from your
[24:53] mother the male ego is very weak really
[24:55] in many ways and it loves that
[24:58] admiration from the mother oh you're the
[24:59] best you a wonderful your father's a
[25:02] creep but you're
[25:08] wonderful we're addicted to
[25:12] that so he's not going to get that now
[25:15] from the wild man do you feel it he not
[25:17] going to get that sort of
[25:20] adoration so there's a wound there in
[25:22] doing that and then you know there's
[25:25] very strange things involved for example
[25:28] Achilles
[25:29] was wounded exactly in the place his
[25:31] mother held him when he she dipped him
[25:34] in to become immortal she was holding
[25:36] him by one tendon and one leg and she
[25:38] dipped him in and that's the only place
[25:40] that didn't touch and that's where they
[25:42] later killed
[25:43] him can you feel the connection there
[25:46] that's called the Achilles tendon to
[25:47] this day so our mothers wanted to make
[25:50] us
[25:52] Immortal it didn't work
[25:56] though so
[25:59] so leaving a a mother's force field
[26:02] isn't
[26:03] easy and there's a lot of pain in in not
[26:08] breaking with the
[26:10] mother and especially when she says I'll
[26:13] make you sort of invincible if you will
[26:15] be my little
[26:18] man and I think it was um R May said
[26:22] something interesting about this he said
[26:24] in terms of the edible situation that
[26:26] Freud talked about which everyone fought
[26:28] for the the mother and the father won
[26:32] and put down the boy and wounded him Etc
[26:34] Al May said the today's problem is the
[26:36] son wins the mother from his passive or
[26:39] absent father and then he doesn't know
[26:40] what to do with
[26:44] it how do you like that
[26:46] one that's what happens in every single
[26:49] household run by a mother a single
[26:51] mother the boy effectively wins the
[26:54] mother from the absent
[26:57] father and then I I can guarantee you he
[26:59] does not want
[27:01] her because in the boy there's
[27:03] tremendous sexual attraction between the
[27:05] the Son and the mother immediately even
[27:07] in the Cradle because they're opposite
[27:09] Sexes you understand that how that goes
[27:12] often times the boy has an tion while
[27:14] the mother is changing the diapers early
[27:16] on she pretends not to notice that too
[27:19] much but it's
[27:21] there and uh so and sometimes the mother
[27:24] will actually come have an orgasm while
[27:26] she's nursing the boy or the girl
[27:29] so that's pretty heavy stuff don't you
[27:31] think
[27:32] so and I say to the man it was rather
[27:34] forward of you you weren't even even you
[27:37] know sort of distant with you mother you
[27:38] Su her
[27:39] breasts that was pretty heavy stuff you
[27:43] did there we don't forget it
[27:47] either
[27:49] never
[27:52] so so
[27:56] um but then what what happens then if it
[27:58] violates the whole 4an idea and you
[28:00] actually win your mother and there's
[28:01] only you and the mother in the house and
[28:02] your father's off somewhere and She's
[28:04] continually telling you anyway the
[28:05] father's no good so there's much more
[28:07] responsibility you'll get back
[28:09] again then the boy doesn't know what to
[28:12] do my own opinion is that the situation
[28:15] we have in the United States now in
[28:16] which young males in high school are
[28:18] getting uglier and uglier when they come
[28:20] into the
[28:23] kitchen and this is an ugliness put on
[28:25] the body so they won't appear so
[28:27] attractive to their mothers
[28:30] and they'll talk ugly too talk ugly to
[28:33] the mother and some other say he's so
[28:36] cute when he
[28:38] doesn't what do you think he
[28:41] does he doesn't know what to do because
[28:43] it's all unconscious anyway it's not in
[28:45] Consciousness he doesn't know why he's
[28:47] talking
[28:49] ugly
[28:51] H the mother doesn't know why these
[28:53] things are continuing in this
[28:56] way okay
[28:58] anyway let's return to our story this is
[29:00] not going to happen to this boy with the
[29:03] help of initiated males in this case
[29:04] represented by the wild man he escapes
[29:07] from the edible trap and he abcon with
[29:09] the key and he says to L
[29:11] adios it's a good clean
[29:14] break so the boy succeeds in passing
[29:16] through a process that's uh really
[29:18] interrupted
[29:20] now many young men now have no contact
[29:23] with their fathers nor with any older
[29:25] male
[29:28] the police chief I think of Detroit I
[29:30] read a little note of his a couple years
[29:32] ago he said these young boys that I'm
[29:34] picking up most of those not only don't
[29:38] have a responsible male in the house
[29:40] they have never met
[29:43] one how do you like
[29:45] that they have never met
[29:49] one and males are a little different
[29:52] than women in many ways but one way I
[29:55] think though I can't speak firmly on on
[29:58] it is that it seems that girls go up
[30:01] into women by certain natural processes
[30:04] that go on in their bodies but a boy
[30:06] doesn't become a man without a
[30:08] model that's a very depressing
[30:11] idea needs needs a
[30:15] model
[30:16] well all right so let's continue then
[30:21] we're going to still talk about this
[30:22] wound
[30:30] according to all initi initiator people
[30:34] like M
[30:37] aladi the first stage of initiation is
[30:39] always a separation from the parents and
[30:41] a withdrawal into the woods and the
[30:43] second St some pain is or wound is
[30:46] always connected with
[30:47] that sometimes it's heavy
[30:49] tattooing sometimes it's scarifying the
[30:52] face sometimes it's removal of a
[30:55] tooth for example among the Australian
[30:58] AB
[30:59] it goes like this they get the young
[31:00] boys lined up and then they start to
[31:03] talk to him
[31:05] about is the great early man the first
[31:08] early man and the boys are wow they you
[31:10] see the old males don't allow the boys
[31:12] to hear anything of this while they're
[31:13] with their mothers only when they're out
[31:15] of the mother's house will they tell
[31:16] them the major stories so they tell him
[31:19] about D and they say he's up there in
[31:21] the tree there is Dara and they all
[31:23] looking at the tree and and the shaman
[31:24] comes along and knocks out one of their
[31:25] tooth with a hammer
[31:30] so that's pain but on the other hand
[31:33] that's what happened to
[31:37] DH you now have a connection with
[31:40] daa wouldn't you give a tooth to have a
[31:43] connection with
[31:46] daa that's the way it
[31:48] goes that that always the initiation has
[31:53] this pain and it is not done in
[31:56] cruelty it's done from the knowledge
[31:58] that Dara grew to be the man he was and
[32:02] the human he was because he endured pain
[32:04] in this case the loss of the Tob and by
[32:06] this method they're put in touch there
[32:08] so the males on the whole don't Comfort
[32:10] the boys either that's another
[32:12] difference between male and female
[32:14] Behavior often times the woman often
[32:16] moves towards the wound to heal it and
[32:19] that's right on her part because when
[32:20] there's pain in a little child you have
[32:23] to move towards it you don't know what
[32:24] it means you have to move towards that
[32:27] wound and that pain and ask about it but
[32:30] um the old initiators especially in New
[32:32] Guinea treat the boys exactly the
[32:33] opposite they give them a good wound and
[32:36] then the next morning they say we'll see
[32:37] at 10:00 out in the woods certain place
[32:40] boys go your men don't turn
[32:43] up 11:00 they came in
[32:46] laughing and apparently no one knows
[32:48] what's going on there there's never any
[32:49] explanation of these cuz these are done
[32:51] without talk but I the only explanation
[32:54] I have for that is this feeling that
[32:56] that if our mother makes makes an
[32:58] arrangement to be with us at 10:00 in
[32:59] the wood she you eyes but I'm I'm
[33:02] telling you the world is not your
[33:04] mother and you better get it through
[33:06] your head right
[33:09] now you feel that
[33:12] one all
[33:15] right so in a way the boy's wounded
[33:17] finger then represents what would have
[33:19] been an initiation right a much deeper
[33:22] wound and uh this this is going to
[33:25] appear as an interview that Keith
[33:26] Thompson and I worked over the last two
[33:27] or three years on this section and Keith
[33:29] at this point said in the interview
[33:31] eliotti says no passage without blood no
[33:33] growth without pain from demons no
[33:35] chains without injury or wound but the
[33:38] ceremonial wounding isn't an end in
[33:40] itself and if we make the wound literal
[33:42] and physical it symbolizes the wounds a
[33:45] man feels in relation to his life as a
[33:48] whole
[33:50] well um so why should the wound be in
[33:53] the
[33:55] finger well James Hillman is brilliant
[33:58] on this point he's the most brilliant
[34:00] psychologist in the United States now
[34:02] he's living in Connecticut and he has I
[34:04] mean you're laughing but I always say if
[34:07] you give a recommendation why go why not
[34:08] go all the way why fool around
[34:13] so and Hilman is the second generation
[34:16] of the yans he and Marie Louise V France
[34:18] are both Geniuses they're the second
[34:19] generation of the yian
[34:21] people hman has written a lot about this
[34:24] he describes how the young male in our
[34:26] culture partly because of the lack of
[34:28] initiation from the older males often
[34:30] times becomes a flying
[34:32] boy he starts to fly and Ascend
[34:35] ascending is his thing he goes into
[34:38] ashrams
[34:39] flies he doesn't commit himself to a
[34:43] marriage or a job but he's a flyer you
[34:46] understand what I mean do you feel this
[34:48] this flying boy and there's about a
[34:51] third to a to half of the males in the
[34:53] country are flying boys
[34:55] know Peter Pan is an example perfect one
[34:58] for that uh what is that other one
[35:00] called the
[35:02] um remember St exupery The Little Prince
[35:06] he was terrified of a snake under the
[35:08] ground snakes are under the ground these
[35:10] these people don't like that ground in
[35:12] that underground there's almost women in
[35:13] it underneath it so if you have an
[35:16] affair with a woman uh you leave her as
[35:18] soon as you can within 3 months
[35:21] H and so there's a lot of wounding going
[35:24] on from these young males are not only
[35:28] negative this is a a spiritual energy
[35:30] the young males have can I put it in
[35:32] another way there's a spiritual energy
[35:35] that the young males have now that
[35:38] energy is supposed to have been lived by
[35:39] the old men of the
[35:41] culture then the young boys would have
[35:43] been free to commit themselves or do
[35:45] whatever they wanted but the old males
[35:46] are not living it in our culture the old
[35:49] males are refusing to live the spirit
[35:52] the result is that the young males have
[35:54] to live it it's like it's got to be
[35:55] lived and that thing in uh Australia
[35:58] those old males are living the spirit
[36:00] every day what does it say with the
[36:01] Australian aborigin something like 62%
[36:03] of his time is taken up with
[36:05] mythology and that means he's dealing
[36:07] with the old Spirit material all the
[36:09] time that leaves the young men free to
[36:11] do as they do but not in our culture
[36:13] because we're forcing the young men to
[36:15] be spiritual in that way and to ascend
[36:16] and fly not all of them of course some
[36:18] of them uh don't do it there are two
[36:20] kinds of males there's the plots and
[36:22] there's the
[36:23] Flyers and this is primarily about the
[36:26] plotter I mean the flyer here so why is
[36:28] it that the finger of the foot Hillman
[36:30] has mentioned that in these men given to
[36:32] spiritual soar often times the wound
[36:34] appears on the finger or the foot at one
[36:37] of the extremities because he is far
[36:41] out do you know that phrase far out
[36:44] that's the phrase by this soaring male
[36:47] far out man far out and that's where he
[36:50] is he's not living in the center here
[36:53] he's living out here out here is where
[36:56] he's living
[36:58] and I was a puer completely for 35 years
[37:02] I'm still a puer one's a puer that's
[37:03] called a puer IIs of the flying boy once
[37:06] a flying boy always a flying boy but
[37:09] still you get a little closer to your
[37:11] Center but uh just a few years ago I was
[37:13] acting very flighty one day and I took
[37:15] her I took a um a circular saw at my
[37:19] cabin and almost saw it right through
[37:21] the end of one of my
[37:22] fingers soon as I did it I knew exactly
[37:25] what had
[37:26] happened another friend Terry went to uh
[37:30] he was in aido school in Japan for 10
[37:32] years with a great aido master and then
[37:34] he made a sudden decision to marry a
[37:36] woman uh not knowing her very well and
[37:39] the next day he broke his finger so
[37:42] badly it's never gotten
[37:44] straight and uh phades had a wound in
[37:48] the foot edus you know what that means
[37:50] swollen
[37:52] foot so again this whole tradition of
[37:55] wounds in the young male in the finger
[37:57] or the foot
[37:58] go on all right let's keep going so
[38:02] therefore we're going to talk about the
[38:04] wound this wound in the finger then not
[38:07] only stands for the initiation wound
[38:09] that's given but it stands for all the
[38:11] wounds we have so I'm going to list a
[38:13] few wounds now I said to Keith give me a
[38:16] few
[38:17] wounds and he said something like this
[38:21] being ignored by your father monster
[38:23] wound does
[38:26] it being ignored by your father monster
[38:29] wound and I want you to feel how much
[38:31] more that how deeper that wound has been
[38:33] since the Industrial Revolution because
[38:36] in the industrial revolution the men
[38:37] were sent away from the
[38:39] house mothers and daughters still stayed
[38:41] in the house up until very recently but
[38:43] the males of the fathers were sent out
[38:45] and a lot of these males especially in
[38:47] area like New York where the long
[38:48] commuting come home they see their son
[38:50] 10 minutes a
[38:52] day we're genetically programmed to see
[38:55] our Our Father many hours a day
[38:58] and we could take it if it is if he
[39:00] would be with us 2 to three hours a day
[39:02] by 10 minutes we're not genetically
[39:03] programmed for that you understand what
[39:05] I'm saying before the Industrial
[39:06] Revolution we were with our father all
[39:08] the time in the day and through the
[39:10] seasons and occasionally you know You'
[39:12] get a little you know a little trouble
[39:15] would happen One Of You' kill the other
[39:16] but it wasn't
[39:18] serious the seriousness is in the
[39:21] remoteness that's what's
[39:24] serious
[39:26] so also um
[39:28] being doted on as a favored by your
[39:30] mother often involves wounding your
[39:32] father and he'll wound you
[39:35] back it's going to happen there's no
[39:37] question about
[39:40] it and when a man acts as if he's
[39:42] morally or spiritually Superior to his
[39:44] father that results in the wound they
[39:46] both
[39:50] feel the way that's put in a great
[39:53] African fairy story which we told there
[39:56] at the conference last
[39:59] week is that it's as if you're hunting
[40:02] with your father and he kills a
[40:05] rat but you want a
[40:08] gazelle you want big
[40:11] things your father's only
[40:13] machinist it's like having a rat so what
[40:17] you do is throw away the rat and you
[40:18] wait for the gazelle but the gazelle
[40:20] doesn't come and your father says to you
[40:22] where's the rat and you say I threw it
[40:25] away
[40:31] that happens to each of us when we
[40:32] refuse to go into our father's way uh uh
[40:35] life life and the way he
[40:38] lives my father was a
[40:40] farmer and in a way that was the rat
[40:43] that he
[40:45] caught and I
[40:50] said I didn't do
[40:53] wrong but I want you to feel the wound
[40:55] that's in him from that h
[41:01] so most of the males in this room have
[41:03] wounded their father in that
[41:05] way whether the father's a barber a
[41:08] businessman whatever always there's that
[41:10] longing that your son will do what you
[41:12] did and therefore sort of justify the
[41:14] sacrifices that you have made and the
[41:16] deprivation of your
[41:18] life and then the son says nope no
[41:22] wait then it says in the story your
[41:24] father gets enraged and he takes an
[41:26] action and hits you
[41:29] that doesn't happen visibly but it
[41:31] happens invisibly do you feel what we're
[41:33] talking about with this wound you cannot
[41:35] wound anyone without them wounding you
[41:36] back so I think that's a heavy wound we
[41:39] all suffer that wound it's a big wound
[41:42] accepting insults is another wound seist
[41:44] feminists go around saying all men are
[41:46] child molesters all men are rapists if
[41:48] you accept those insults you've taken a
[41:51] big wound in right here and I advise you
[41:54] not to do that
[41:59] thank you very
[42:08] much I met a man out west who came to a
[42:10] thing I said and he said you know he
[42:12] said I um I gave a little talk at San
[42:15] Francisco State it was in the Port
[42:16] Reading but I made a few remarks about
[42:18] men and he said I I disagree with what
[42:20] you're saying about
[42:21] men I'd like to talk to you about it I
[42:23] said okay fine when do you want to talk
[42:26] so we made an arrangement a couple days
[42:27] later for coffee I went and I met him
[42:29] and I said what do you object to he said
[42:31] um I object to you're talking about the
[42:33] wild man is too positive an
[42:35] image too positive I said what do you do
[42:38] he says I run the men's group in
[42:39] Berkeley and he says every man that we
[42:41] get in there first of all we make him
[42:43] agreed that he's responsible for every
[42:45] rape in the world and every violence
[42:47] done against
[42:49] women before we let him go on I said
[42:52] well um I asked him what his background
[42:56] was and and his background was in
[42:58] feminist
[43:01] groups so I said to him but uh there's a
[43:05] strange thing here because when women
[43:08] begin a group they do not begin by
[43:11] undermining the confidence of the
[43:15] woman they begin by supporting the
[43:19] woman if you're really following them
[43:21] how come you went so far off this time
[43:29] I said you got a lot of anger against
[43:30] your father don't you said you're a
[43:32] double agent aren
[43:36] you
[43:38] so so that most of the violence comes
[43:41] from men is there's a that's true that
[43:43] there are rapes is true all of that is
[43:45] true and that women are fighting in this
[43:47] country that's all true at the same time
[43:49] when you accept it as an insult all men
[43:51] are rapist that's a wound you're
[43:53] accepting yourself you're just taking it
[43:56] in and I think a a lot of young males
[43:59] have been wounded in that way in the
[44:00] last 15 years it's results in that loss
[44:03] of self-esteem which is what happens
[44:05] with every
[44:06] wound
[44:08] um when a young man goes to Vietnam
[44:10] because his country tells him to and he
[44:12] gets there and he finds out that
[44:13] everybody's been lying to him that's a
[44:16] wound that's a deep
[44:19] wound I feel a lot of compassion for the
[44:22] Vietnam
[44:23] veterans they believed I tell you here's
[44:26] a wound for example there a woman that I
[44:28] know I met this man in San Francisco and
[44:31] he was introduced to me as a Vietnam
[44:32] veteran and I said to him um how do you
[44:34] feel about that said I'm very
[44:37] angry I said what happened M said I'll
[44:40] tell you one one thing that happened
[44:41] says I'm a Catholic kid from
[44:44] Pennsylvania when I went in the Army I
[44:47] believed some of the things that the
[44:48] church had told me about human dignity
[44:51] and respectful women and we got over
[44:53] there and they said if it's got slanty
[44:54] forehead kill it everything's a goo kill
[44:56] it
[44:58] he said after we did that for 30 days
[45:00] violating all those things we felt about
[45:02] human dignity you know what they do the
[45:04] men the older men would send us to
[45:05] whouses in
[45:07] Thailand and he said I still had some
[45:10] feeling for
[45:12] women and he said I've lost that and I'm
[45:16] very angry about it it's not it's not
[45:18] coming back you feel it there's a wound
[45:21] for you done by those stupid older men
[45:24] who stayed in Saigon and thought that
[45:26] what young men wanted was was whouses in
[45:28] Thailand after they've been killed
[45:30] people
[45:32] so that's a wound not being able to
[45:35] enter the job force is another
[45:38] wound feeling yourself weaker than other
[45:41] men a monster wound you know that
[45:45] one so there's a very interesting thing
[45:47] when we had a mother conference this
[45:48] year we had men and women together it's
[45:50] called the conference in the great
[45:51] mother and I've been running it for 10
[45:53] years and then about 3 years ago the men
[45:54] and the women started to meet separately
[45:56] for a day or so some told this story a
[45:58] little bit I think it was David uh and
[46:00] so we met together this year out in
[46:02] California the men met together for a
[46:03] couple of days and the women met
[46:04] together for a couple days and we came
[46:05] back together and we all mixed again and
[46:07] it was lovely and then it was about the
[46:09] sixth day or so we were out on the beach
[46:11] so the men went by themselves uh off in
[46:13] the beach and talked about what had
[46:14] happened since the men's group BR com
[46:16] two things were very interesting first
[46:18] of all all the unity between the men had
[46:20] disappeared as soon as the women were
[46:23] there and and because the women the men
[46:26] were all flirting with the women
[46:28] and the interesting thing was that every
[46:30] male there felt that some other male was
[46:33] more attractive to the woman it just
[46:36] went right up the ladder until everyone
[46:38] turned to the most handsome One and said
[46:39] you get them all they all want you and
[46:41] he said what are you talking about he's
[46:43] the
[46:44] one being like him I know that and
[46:47] everyone was stunned that everyone has
[46:50] another male to whom he feels inferior
[46:52] huh that is wild second thing that was
[46:56] trally interesting was that that the men
[46:58] were perfectly willing to break up their
[47:00] Unity for the sake of flirting with
[47:02] women it's all gone 2 hours after we got
[47:05] back
[47:07] in so that was very interesting and um
[47:12] and uh so that's an issue in that whole
[47:14] thing and sometimes and I said to them
[47:17] you know in real life if you're sleeping
[47:19] with another man's wife don't tell me
[47:21] you're interested in the men's
[47:23] group you just violated and harmed
[47:25] another male don't tell me you're
[47:28] interested in males I don't believe it
[47:30] at all isn't that what we
[47:33] do so it's interesting how serious the
[47:37] friendship and loyalties of men are and
[47:40] how little we are really conscious of
[47:43] what we lose by letting letting it off
[47:46] and this whole business of feeling I'll
[47:47] tell you this little story I stuck it in
[47:49] the interview at this point because I
[47:50] went out to visit a group in Marshall
[47:52] Minnesota and there a men's group just
[47:54] started there so we went and sat around
[47:55] in the floor
[47:58] finally uh I mentioned that whenever I
[48:00] was in high school if anyone asked me a
[48:02] question I automatically
[48:04] lied cuz I wanted to be more like the
[48:06] basketball
[48:08] players I try to give some half-ass
[48:10] Macho answer you know so I'd be more
[48:13] like the basketball players and oh wow
[48:15] that sank in and everyone went back to
[48:18] their High School oh no and then finally
[48:20] it was a lapse of 5 minutes and finally
[48:22] one man said I wonder if there ever was
[48:24] a basketball player
[48:29] that was very
[48:31] nice well so we're still talking about
[48:34] the
[48:35] wound one of the great books about the
[48:37] wound is Pary fall done in the Middle
[48:40] Ages and there's a very interesting
[48:42] thing there's a procession to the Grail
[48:44] castle and Pary fall goes in he's there
[48:47] and they have a tremendous procession
[48:49] come by and on it there is a lance with
[48:52] blood running down the
[48:55] tip a wonderful symbol of male
[49:00] suffering but paral does not say what is
[49:05] the meaning of this suffering he doesn't
[49:07] say anything and because he didn't say
[49:09] anything the whole Grail Castle
[49:10] disappears and he wakes up outside with
[49:12] his horse in next
[49:14] morning you feel that one when we feel
[49:18] suffering in ourselves or in other men
[49:20] we don't say what's the meaning of this
[49:21] that we don't mention it and then the
[49:23] whole Grail Castle disappears and it
[49:26] takes him 15 years years to get back to
[49:28] that castle again would you say that's a
[49:30] strong
[49:31] one that's incredible and the reason was
[49:33] because his mother told him always to be
[49:37] polite that's what it says in the book
[49:40] his male advisor said whenever you
[49:42] somewhere ask about the meaning of it
[49:43] his mother said when you become a night
[49:45] be
[49:46] polite so we're not talking about anti-
[49:48] female here we're talking about these
[49:50] two codes of living which are both good
[49:52] and strong but one may be inappropriate
[49:54] at a certain time all right
[49:58] all right now so what does it say in our
[50:01] story it says that the wound not needs
[50:03] not only to be to be faced it needs to
[50:07] be dipped in the
[50:08] water the wound of a male needs to be
[50:12] dipped in a pond and not just any
[50:15] ordinary Pond but a pond owned by a male
[50:17] and specifically by the wild
[50:19] man that dipping of the wound is helpful
[50:28] therapy in a way is dipping of the
[50:31] wound it's a way of putting your finger
[50:33] down into that for hour if you got a
[50:35] good therapy man therapy woman provide
[50:39] moistness for you to put your finger
[50:42] in so there's many ways that we can
[50:44] learn to dip our wound but males in the
[50:46] United States usually don't dip their
[50:48] wound they ignore it you can say Macho
[50:51] is a person who's ignoring his wound
[50:54] completely whereas a wild man is one
[50:56] very conscious of the
[50:58] wound
[51:01] so now I want to say one other thing
[51:03] here we're still talking about the
[51:09] wound are you okay are you
[51:12] exhausted okay let's go one of the one
[51:15] of the problems here is that the men in
[51:17] our culture are paying more attention to
[51:19] the wom's wound than to their
[51:23] own so
[51:28] and many men were asked early on to
[51:31] carry their mother's
[51:35] pain this is particularly so in single
[51:38] family places single parent ones the
[51:41] pain of the woman is terrific especially
[51:44] when we force these women to live with
[51:46] low incomes after they
[51:49] divorced their pain is terrific and the
[51:52] son is there and he himself wants to
[51:55] carry that pain h
[51:58] sometimes people say you are the little
[52:00] man in the house now well we know what
[52:02] that means that means we have to be a
[52:04] hero and we have to carry this pain
[52:05] there's no other older male there to
[52:07] carry it so we have to carry it do you
[52:09] understand how that prepares us for
[52:10] carrying your
[52:13] pain so there's a wonderful man uh a
[52:16] good man out in California named KL
[52:18] Faber and he's been giving lectures in
[52:19] Los Angeles uh every month every year or
[52:22] so on the sexual
[52:24] Wars and I heard one of his tapes and
[52:26] I'll tell you what he said in it he
[52:28] mentioned that um he described trying
[52:31] for 10 or 15 years to carry the pain of
[52:33] the women he lived
[52:35] with and or at least be completely open
[52:39] to the depth of it he found out that he
[52:42] couldn't do it for example two of them
[52:44] would begin to talk about male
[52:45] oppression about 10 in the evening and
[52:47] she would want to solve this issue of uh
[52:49] 2,000 years by 2:30 that
[52:53] morning so after four hours of attack
[52:57] and defense Carl said I'd be so weak I
[52:59] didn't know what I was doing anymore so
[53:02] he said I'd be so exhausted I'd agree to
[53:04] anything and if she pointed out any act
[53:07] ID taken as perfect evidence of male
[53:09] oppression I'd agree never to do it
[53:11] again but I really wasn't all there
[53:14] she'd sense that and hadd make her still
[53:16] more
[53:17] enraged besides a month later I'd forget
[53:20] and she'd say you're still the same pig
[53:21] you always
[53:23] were and it's very funny with Carl
[53:25] because he because one of the things he
[53:27] mentions in there is that a lot of the
[53:29] pain of women is is causing Away by
[53:31] these people in Coal Mines that put
[53:33] holes in and demand on looking through
[53:35] the holes from the women where coal
[53:36] miners are taking showers you know that
[53:38] thing that happened down south a while
[53:39] ago now the woman never gets to confront
[53:41] those guys instead it's people like Carl
[53:43] would get it would never look through a
[53:46] hole in a coal mine
[53:49] shower but the women will choose a
[53:51] sensitive one to lay it
[53:53] on and that's perfectly human it's a
[53:55] natural thing to do
[53:57] so often times in our culture in the
[53:59] last 15 years the male spends more time
[54:01] in carrying the woman's pain than he
[54:02] does in carrying his
[54:05] own and the Rambo male conceals his pain
[54:09] um through murder and heroic
[54:12] battles and the male in between this
[54:14] avoids the
[54:16] subject
[54:18] so well so this story says that the pain
[54:23] is best healed in the force field of the
[54:25] wild man and through the whole middle
[54:27] there was a tremendous tales of the wild
[54:29] man and his
[54:32] uh Evan is a story that Joe Campbell
[54:35] often talks about this so an implication
[54:37] of it is that no woman can heal a man's
[54:41] pain and a man is mistaken to ask for
[54:45] that sometimes a man thinks that facing
[54:47] the pain is synonymous with whining and
[54:50] whimpering isn't that right it's a start
[54:53] anyway
[54:57] so we notice that when a man begins to
[54:59] feel his pain and his wound he'll often
[55:02] be he'll sense that men don't want to
[55:04] hear about that
[55:05] pain and that's sometimes true and he'll
[55:08] move towards a woman we sense we talk
[55:10] about it we'll listen and that's usually
[55:13] true
[55:15] so uh the problem is that if you talk
[55:18] about your pain only with a
[55:20] woman you are associating your
[55:23] feeling with the feminine mod of feeling
[55:28] it get all gets stuck over there do you
[55:29] understand what I'm saying I believe
[55:31] there are two modes of feeling the
[55:32] female mode of feeling which is a
[55:33] marvelous mode and the mail mode which
[55:35] is a marvelous mode but if in but in an
[55:38] art in art you know little houses
[55:40] whenever we got wounded in school fell
[55:43] off something we went to our mother so
[55:46] she always responded with that female
[55:47] mode of feeling Our Father wasn't there
[55:49] and so the difficulty I think for men is
[55:51] after years of going to women for this
[55:54] kind of thing we can often project our
[55:56] feeling into enely on the woman and
[55:57] assume that she is much wiser and
[55:59] feeling and all that than we are and we
[56:00] never bring it to a
[56:02] man in fact the way it's going now often
[56:05] times the man carries the pain and the
[56:08] feeling for a woman and sometimes the
[56:10] woman now is carrying the aggression for
[56:12] him how's that for
[56:14] relationship how long do you think
[56:16] that'll last a woman carries the
[56:18] aggression for both of them you know
[56:20] she's saying let's get around let's do
[56:22] this I'm not standing on this stuff get
[56:23] to the
[56:28] and he says well you know you just have
[56:29] to take an account he had a hard
[56:31] childhood the man
[56:36] says all right are you ready to go on to
[56:39] the second day now I wanted to hold you
[56:41] there on the first day to think about
[56:42] the wound a little bit are we settled
[56:43] with the wound are you depressed
[56:46] enough okay let's go on then so the
[56:49] second thing that happened then was on
[56:50] the second day the hair fell in the
[56:52] pond we don't know what to do with that
[56:54] that's the quality of a fairy story
[56:56] absolutely nothing is there you got to
[56:57] work it out yourself there's no answer
[56:59] right or wrong but I would say that what
[57:02] we have here with the uh hair falling
[57:04] the hair is always associated with
[57:07] sexuality and it's difficult for men
[57:10] because women still have Aphrodite as a
[57:12] God is connected connecting their
[57:14] sexuality with the Divine men have
[57:18] nothing most men feel their sexuality to
[57:22] be something sort of um very secular uh
[57:26] um having nothing really involved in it
[57:29] just something practical and and uh
[57:32] really um Unworthy of you and isn't that
[57:35] what they said in Sunday
[57:37] school it's Unworthy of you you got to
[57:40] have higher things man I Mak a jokes
[57:42] forget it
[57:45] um so there there's some way in which
[57:48] when the male initiators came in and
[57:50] worked with that young boy they would
[57:52] show him that his sexuality has a link
[57:54] with the Divine also and that's said in
[57:57] this story by the single hair falling in
[58:00] and turning gold gold is Al the end of
[58:03] the alchemical process gold always
[58:05] stands for the Divine in the fairy
[58:06] choice so now the whole man is not
[58:09] Divine but one hair is
[58:14] divine again that's something that we
[58:16] need to get from other
[58:18] men the awareness that is in many
[58:20] cultures of a connection between
[58:22] sexuality and the Divine so that we
[58:24] don't try to be spiritual here and
[58:26] completely sexual on that one another
[58:30] thing that's beautiful to me is that
[58:31] when he runs it through his hair one
[58:33] thing you can say is that he dipped it
[58:35] the first time and now he's elevating
[58:38] it and also the hair is close to the
[58:41] head so you're taking your uh your pain
[58:44] and you're running it through certain
[58:45] ideas why not take that wound that you
[58:48] have and Associate it with Freud's ideas
[58:50] with yung's ideas with Hillman's ideas
[58:52] all that's a way of honoring your
[58:54] pain by putting it in the area of ideas
[58:57] instead of getting out in a motorcycle
[58:58] and racing off
[59:01] somewhere this needs books this needs
[59:04] thought here so that our pain has a
[59:06] dignified place to be and this is a kind
[59:09] of an honoring of the pain when you run
[59:12] it over your head and elevate it that
[59:14] way so after that's been done after the
[59:17] pain has been dipped and then after it
[59:19] has been elevated and you reg guided
[59:20] with dignity and when people make jokes
[59:22] about it you say I no
[59:24] no don't agree with you
[59:27] or something you understand it and you
[59:30] feel the Dignity of your father's pain
[59:33] in losing you to your
[59:36] mother and the Dignity of your father's
[59:39] pain when you didn't take the work that
[59:40] he was doing in his own
[59:43] life and the Dignity of your pain that
[59:46] pain you felt when you broke from your
[59:47] mother and how terrific that was how
[59:49] what a terrible pain that was and the
[59:52] pain of not having any father near you
[59:55] and the pain of not not having any male
[59:57] initiators at
[1:00:00] all are those enough pains that's enough
[1:00:04] and um when you can think of those as a
[1:00:06] way to the
[1:00:09] Divine not as something bad that
[1:00:11] happened to
[1:00:14] you if you hadn't felt that pain that
[1:00:17] you are feeling you wouldn't be in this
[1:00:19] room right
[1:00:22] now so the pains that we receive are
[1:00:25] ways in which help us to escape from the
[1:00:27] secular and move towards the Divine or
[1:00:29] towards growth do you hear me what I'm
[1:00:31] saying and this was the subject of this
[1:00:33] thing was a wound so I know that you're
[1:00:35] aware of you wounder you wouldn't have
[1:00:36] come to this so we can tell our old
[1:00:39] stories two ways I got wounded my mother
[1:00:41] and father hurt me and it's very bad and
[1:00:43] I feel very bad terrible the other
[1:00:45] that's fine too I love to hear that the
[1:00:47] other way you can say it is my mother
[1:00:48] and father wounded me and I got wounded
[1:00:50] and that's how I got on the
[1:00:52] road without the wound I wouldn't I'd be
[1:00:55] back there right now
[1:00:57] so that's something to understand I
[1:00:58] think it's good third thing after the
[1:01:00] dipping in the elevating then it's
[1:01:02] possible to begin looking into your own
[1:01:03] eyes there are certain moments in the
[1:01:05] life of a human being in which that
[1:01:07] person decides to look at his parents as
[1:01:10] they really are not blaming them or
[1:01:12] praising them just looking at the family
[1:01:14] situation as it is as it
[1:01:17] was that's called looking into your own
[1:01:21] eyes and there's a lot of grief in that
[1:01:24] but you're looking at something out
[1:01:26] there and you're looking at something
[1:01:27] inside at the same time so those are
[1:01:29] marvelous times when you can come to
[1:01:31] that and all I remember M Kushi said I'm
[1:01:34] so shocked when I come to am everybody
[1:01:36] hates our
[1:01:37] [Music]
[1:01:39] pants and I said don't you no no in
[1:01:42] Japan we don't hate our parents the way
[1:01:44] you do here what we do we think that we
[1:01:47] came from oh we came down from Infinity
[1:01:51] counterclockwise and we came down like
[1:01:53] this and uh and our mother gave a place
[1:01:56] in a wom for this to come here him out
[1:02:00] without her
[1:02:02] we so we're very grateful to her cuz she
[1:02:06] accepted this
[1:02:08] counterclockwise and then it's our job
[1:02:10] to move out of here and back to
[1:02:12] infinity and he said we do this one
[1:02:14] pretty well this one we don't do so
[1:02:23] well all right so I'll tell you a story
[1:02:25] now about this thing of looking into the
[1:02:27] eyes to me it's a lovely story um you
[1:02:30] want you want me to stay here do
[1:02:34] you maybe I'll turn this I like to be
[1:02:37] getting nearer people a little
[1:02:39] bit
[1:02:41] side all right when Keith and I were
[1:02:44] doing this interview the first time
[1:02:47] around uh Keith is about 20 years
[1:02:49] younger than I am uh originally from
[1:02:51] Indiana went to California and this is
[1:02:53] the story he told
[1:02:54] me I said said he we started talking
[1:02:57] about this business and not breaking
[1:02:58] from the mother and he said man that's
[1:03:00] like the story of my life and he said um
[1:03:03] my father left the family when I was
[1:03:05] about 12 so I stayed with my mother and
[1:03:07] I was brought up by my mother I was
[1:03:08] brought up by women and he said in high
[1:03:10] school I had wonderful women friends and
[1:03:12] after I got out of high school I met
[1:03:14] some feminists there and they taught me
[1:03:15] tremendous things and I I learned most
[1:03:18] of what I learned from women and they
[1:03:20] were wonderful women and still are and
[1:03:23] uh I said what happened then I had a
[1:03:24] dream I said what is a dream he said I
[1:03:28] dreamt that I was in the forest living
[1:03:31] with She
[1:03:32] Wolves I think the wolf is a positive
[1:03:35] thing here an independent animal I was
[1:03:37] living in the forest with She Wolves we
[1:03:39] ran together in packs very coordinated
[1:03:43] and one day they all went down to the
[1:03:44] river and they bent down to look at
[1:03:47] their faces in the water and I looked
[1:03:49] but where my face should have been there
[1:03:51] was nothing at all
[1:03:59] tough dream isn't it it says that when a
[1:04:02] man is brought up by women not only
[1:04:04] won't he have a ma brought up by women
[1:04:06] exclusively without the male coming in
[1:04:08] not only won't he have a masculine face
[1:04:10] there'll be no face at
[1:04:15] all so I said to him what' you do
[1:04:18] Keith he said well strangest thing was I
[1:04:22] started to think more about my
[1:04:24] father and I wrote to my my father in
[1:04:26] Indiana and I and when I went home for
[1:04:29] Christmas I said to my mother I'm going
[1:04:31] over and spend the night with Dad
[1:04:32] tonight and she didn't
[1:04:33] object women understand this most of
[1:04:36] them I would know spent the night with
[1:04:38] Dad and came back and then a strange
[1:04:40] thing happened he I uh he came out I
[1:04:42] said when you come to San Francisco come
[1:04:44] and see me he said okay I got closer to
[1:04:47] my father and then I ran to Marathon in
[1:04:50] San Francisco and when I came off the
[1:04:52] marathon my father was standing there
[1:04:57] and I had the and he praised me I had
[1:04:59] the feeling was the first time in his
[1:05:01] life that he had praised
[1:05:03] me and me a tremendous amount to me and
[1:05:06] I said what happened then then that
[1:05:07] winter I had my first friendships with
[1:05:10] men had two friendships really deep ones
[1:05:13] with men that year so I thought that's
[1:05:15] really terrifically interesting the
[1:05:16] whole sequence first of all you're
[1:05:18] brought up by women and with women
[1:05:20] exclusively you don't see your face at
[1:05:22] all when you get that shock that you
[1:05:24] don't have a face then then you make a
[1:05:26] contact with your father after the
[1:05:29] contact with the father comes the
[1:05:30] friendships with
[1:05:31] men interesting sequence and one of the
[1:05:34] first things we noticed when we were
[1:05:36] beginning this is so many American men
[1:05:38] have no male friends at all talked to
[1:05:41] one last night I just met someone he
[1:05:42] said you know something I haven't a
[1:05:44] single male friend I'm 32 years
[1:05:48] old
[1:05:50] so well all right so we're just about
[1:05:53] done here
[1:05:53] [Music]
[1:05:54] now um I don't think I want to go into
[1:05:58] uh we can spend a lot of time thinking
[1:06:01] about hair and its relation to Samson
[1:06:03] and all of those things and that's all
[1:06:06] very
[1:06:07] interesting and um but it'll be midnight
[1:06:10] you know so I think we
[1:06:13] go Keith said an interesting thing here
[1:06:15] he said you know well he said when he
[1:06:19] was with germane Greer and Susan Brown
[1:06:21] Miller and Phyllis Chesler he studied
[1:06:22] those Works in college classes it
[1:06:24] depicted the man I didn't want to be but
[1:06:25] it gave no hint of what a positive maale
[1:06:27] might
[1:06:28] be that's
[1:06:31] important a man wrote to Keith after our
[1:06:34] first article came out and he said I've
[1:06:36] signed up for a class at Indiana
[1:06:37] University on male things keithb say
[1:06:40] wonderful he went to the class all of
[1:06:42] the books in the class are written by
[1:06:44] women turned out it was run by a
[1:06:47] woman and Keith said what' you do he
[1:06:50] said I dropped out and took a course in
[1:06:51] woodworking
[1:06:59] so that's not to make fun of the women
[1:07:01] who are doing that it's just to say you
[1:07:03] know if you were a woman and you went to
[1:07:05] a class and all the books in it had been
[1:07:07] written by men and there was a male
[1:07:10] running it what would you do but the
[1:07:12] women seem to think this is not unusual
[1:07:14] they think we're so stupid we can't run
[1:07:16] our own classes can't dress ourselves H
[1:07:19] can't dress ourselves yes that's right
[1:07:21] that's quite true this business of of
[1:07:24] putting your feeling onto the women's
[1:07:25] side it's so interesting because I'll go
[1:07:28] for example my wife is very Savvy in
[1:07:31] this and sort of wonderful in this but
[1:07:33] still I will go into Jers or something
[1:07:35] who I'm going to buy a couple ties right
[1:07:37] so I look at these ties and then I say
[1:07:39] to her I I know I kind of like them and
[1:07:41] I say to her which one do you like and
[1:07:43] she says I like that one and immediately
[1:07:45] the other one
[1:07:47] Fades and I see wow I can see this one
[1:07:49] glowing here how come I never noticed
[1:07:51] that before
[1:07:56] so did you see a man just transfer his
[1:07:58] own feeling stuff over to a woman and
[1:08:00] accept that in my eyes actually
[1:08:02] change I do wallpaper man you to see us
[1:08:04] with
[1:08:08] wallpaper
[1:08:11] so all right so let's go on then to this
[1:08:13] little business here just to stay with
[1:08:15] that of looking into the water so this
[1:08:18] man did the did the opposite thing that
[1:08:19] Keith did when this one who had gone
[1:08:22] through the initiation with the wild man
[1:08:24] looked into the water he saw his own
[1:08:25] face not only saw a mat face he saw his
[1:08:27] own face and then he bent down farther
[1:08:29] to look into the eyes and Antonio
[1:08:30] Machado who's a great poet wrote a
[1:08:32] couple of poems I'll read you four line
[1:08:33] ones the eyes you're looking for listen
[1:08:35] now the eyes you see yourself in are
[1:08:38] eyes because they see
[1:08:44] you another one an eye is not an eye
[1:08:46] because you see it it's an eye because
[1:08:48] it sees
[1:08:50] you to feel that when he looked down
[1:08:52] into his own eyes eventually someone was
[1:08:54] looking back
[1:08:57] the eye you see is not an eye because
[1:08:59] you see it it's an eye because it sees
[1:09:02] you do you understand now how when that
[1:09:05] happens to a man or a woman they feel
[1:09:07] less alone in this
[1:09:09] universe someone is looking at them
[1:09:13] wonderful
[1:09:14] wonderful narcissism is an ugly fault
[1:09:17] and an ancient fault and now it's a
[1:09:18] boring fault
[1:09:21] too nice poem huh narcissism is an
[1:09:24] ancient fault in an ugly fault and now
[1:09:26] it's a boring
[1:09:28] fault not being able to see your own
[1:09:31] true eyes you just see look in your
[1:09:33] mirror for the other one the other one
[1:09:34] who walks by your side intends to be
[1:09:36] what you
[1:09:37] are that's a good poem too always look
[1:09:40] in your Mir you can see in your mirror
[1:09:42] who you are always look in your mirror
[1:09:44] for the other one the one who walks by
[1:09:45] your side intends to be what you
[1:09:47] are all right we're this about done here
[1:09:50] um I wanted to give you some stuff from
[1:09:53] this uh essay because uh we had worked
[1:09:56] on it a long time and been thinking
[1:09:58] about it and I'm going to wrap it up
[1:10:00] here
[1:10:01] now all right so looking into your own
[1:10:04] eyes is the same as seeing your own
[1:10:11] wound the thing to do is instead of
[1:10:13] arguing about what masculinity is or
[1:10:16] about what Macho is to try to carry your
[1:10:18] own
[1:10:24] wound and and asking women to carry your
[1:10:27] pain or your time to carry women's pain
[1:10:29] is a mingling of the two modes of
[1:10:31] feeling many men in the last 15 years
[1:10:34] have tried to be as sensitive as women
[1:10:37] that is to say to pick up the women's
[1:10:38] way of doing things I can guarantee you
[1:10:40] She'll always do it better than
[1:10:42] you haven't got a
[1:10:44] chance a woman knows her mode of feeling
[1:10:47] goes back through her mother grandmother
[1:10:49] all the way back thousands of years
[1:10:51] she's firm in that try to learn
[1:10:54] it can't do it
[1:10:56] I give you an image maybe this will help
[1:10:58] you when I was on in California a man a
[1:11:00] woman that I knew I was going up to a
[1:11:02] men's group and she said to me uh
[1:11:03] psychiatrist from from Malibu came to
[1:11:05] see me last night and he said um tell
[1:11:08] Robert this he said um I am seeing men
[1:11:10] now that are 50 to 60 years old they're
[1:11:12] extremely successful all of them they in
[1:11:14] the world they're very
[1:11:16] strong what they come to me about is
[1:11:19] because when they're in Intimate
[1:11:20] situation they feel
[1:11:23] smothered helpless
[1:11:27] they're strong out there but when
[1:11:28] they're alone with a woman or something
[1:11:30] in an intimate situation they feel
[1:11:34] weak I know that mood very well so I
[1:11:38] just here's an image of it the woman is
[1:11:42] standing on her Mountain it's like this
[1:11:45] here's her grandfather grandmother great
[1:11:47] grandmother grand grand grandmother it's
[1:11:49] all going down what women say to each
[1:11:51] other in the
[1:11:52] kitchen little girls talking with their
[1:11:54] mother
[1:11:57] you stand next to your father 5 minutes
[1:11:59] a day what do you pick up from him
[1:12:01] nothing so therefore this is the only
[1:12:03] Mountain we have now is this woman's
[1:12:06] mountain and you're up there and the
[1:12:08] woman asks you come over and talk to me
[1:12:10] okay I love that I get over there I got
[1:12:12] a little basket I'm hanging off the end
[1:12:14] of the
[1:12:16] mountain
[1:12:18] right anybody cuts
[1:12:21] it so naturally you were frightened in
[1:12:24] the presence of women that enorm
[1:12:26] materially they have of intimacy there
[1:12:27] and we have no advice from our father or
[1:12:29] anyone else how to deal with that am I
[1:12:30] say anything to you so what what men I
[1:12:34] think can do is that when men start to
[1:12:36] to be more with men then they can
[1:12:38] develop a mountain here to of the male
[1:12:40] mode of feeling that's what those old
[1:12:42] initiators did they brought those young
[1:12:43] boys in and they said listen we'll show
[1:12:45] you how men what men love men love to be
[1:12:49] crazy number one they love the other
[1:12:51] world they got these hundreds of
[1:12:53] mythologies they love everyone in them
[1:12:55] SS old thing and um about 3: in the
[1:12:58] morning they love to dance go completely
[1:13:00] mad and sing all this stuff that's the
[1:13:02] way men
[1:13:11] are
[1:13:13] so with that uh you get a sense of being
[1:13:17] able to build a mail mountain and they
[1:13:19] don't abud each other they go right
[1:13:21] through you understand how I mean the
[1:13:22] bases would intersect would go through
[1:13:24] each other fine and then she's on her
[1:13:26] mountain and you are on
[1:13:28] yours and she says something and you say
[1:13:31] something and she says something and you
[1:13:33] say something you're not about you're
[1:13:34] not in a basket about to fall
[1:13:37] off that's my last metaphor I hope you
[1:13:40] like
[1:13:48] it I'm going to do one poem and then
[1:13:50] answer questions okay thank so um
[1:13:55] I thought I would do finding the
[1:13:58] [Music]
[1:14:04] father this body offers to carry us for
[1:14:08] nothing as the ocean carries
[1:14:12] logs so on some
[1:14:15] days the body whales with its great
[1:14:19] [Music]
[1:14:21] energy it throws
[1:14:24] [Music]
[1:14:25] itself up the
[1:14:27] Rocks throwing small
[1:14:31] crabs there's a knock at the
[1:14:34] door we don't have time to
[1:14:36] dress he wants us to go with him through
[1:14:40] the blowing and Rainy
[1:14:41] Streets to the dark
[1:14:46] house and there we will find the father
[1:14:49] whom we have never
[1:14:52] met who wandered out in the snowstorm
[1:14:55] the night we were
[1:14:57] born who then lost his
[1:15:00] memory and has lived since longing for
[1:15:03] his child whom he saw only
[1:15:06] once while he worked as a shoe
[1:15:09] maker as a cattle herder in
[1:15:13] Australia as a restaurant cook who
[1:15:16] painted at
[1:15:18] night when you light the lamp when you
[1:15:22] light the lamp you will see him
[1:15:27] sitting behind the
[1:15:31] door the forehead so
[1:15:34] light the eyebrows so
[1:15:37] heavy lonely in his whole
[1:15:41] body waiting for
[1:15:48] [Music]
[1:15:52] you all right now what kind of question
[1:15:55] what you like to ask yes please I would
[1:15:58] like to know if you'd be willing to give
[1:15:59] us a brief explanation about what the
[1:16:01] Third Day means to you with the full
[1:16:03] head of hair turning to Gold thank you
[1:16:06] good
[1:16:07] question the feeling I think is that
[1:16:14] um when your finger Turns
[1:16:17] Gold may your finger Turns
[1:16:20] Gold you're going to ask yourself when
[1:16:22] was the first time in your life you ever
[1:16:24] felt that the TI of your finger was
[1:16:26] gold I asked that a man said the first
[1:16:29] time I painted a good painting I knew
[1:16:30] the end of my finger was gold another
[1:16:33] man said the first time I made love I
[1:16:35] knew the end of my finger was
[1:16:36] B so there's those moments in us when we
[1:16:39] feel there's something special and
[1:16:40] terrific and then the single hair seems
[1:16:43] to be that issue of uh maybe your
[1:16:45] sexuality realizing something good in
[1:16:47] that male sexuality then the third time
[1:16:51] is when that whole head of hair turns
[1:16:53] gold and there's a Feeling
[1:16:55] that that there's something powerful and
[1:16:58] strong and even Divine in you something
[1:17:01] capable of that and of course what the
[1:17:04] story says is must be bound up
[1:17:06] immediately one of the themes we didn't
[1:17:08] get into here which we get into very
[1:17:10] strongly in the next section of the
[1:17:11] story is that if you have artistic
[1:17:14] ability if you have if you have a soul
[1:17:16] ability that's like having a head of
[1:17:18] hair that's gold and you must hide it
[1:17:21] you must not show it yet our culture is
[1:17:24] completely off on that so they want
[1:17:26] artists to have an exhibition in New
[1:17:28] York when they're
[1:17:29] 23 that's called showing your gold not
[1:17:32] binding it
[1:17:33] up and the gold should be held until
[1:17:36] you're 38 or
[1:17:37] 39 Whitman held his until he was exactly
[1:17:40] 39 I think Wallace Stevens published his
[1:17:43] first book 42 William Stafford 43 before
[1:17:46] he published his first book you
[1:17:48] understand what I'm saying and the
[1:17:49] interesting thing and well I just go on
[1:17:51] with that that that's that's the issue
[1:17:53] that's how he first becomes aware of it
[1:17:54] and binds it up you see and of course
[1:17:57] that's did he do anything wrong in these
[1:17:59] three days no way it's just put that way
[1:18:03] you know if you want if you want someone
[1:18:05] to put something in the pond you tell
[1:18:06] them not
[1:18:08] to that always
[1:18:10] works yes who else please yes please
[1:18:13] what's going on with the a lot a number
[1:18:16] of women are choosing to to have
[1:18:19] children with no husband in mind no
[1:18:21] spouse in mind what's going on what's
[1:18:23] the kind of the dynamic going on there
[1:18:25] I'd say that's called
[1:18:27] ignorance I mean that's what the
[1:18:29] Buddhist say the trouble with the world
[1:18:30] is not sin but ignorance and the idea of
[1:18:33] of those are sperm Stealers it's another
[1:18:35] way to look at them they're sperm
[1:18:37] Stealers they steal sperm and then use
[1:18:40] it and produce a child with no father
[1:18:44] and the idea of trying to bring up a
[1:18:45] young male with no father I think is
[1:18:47] just as crazy as Star Wars by
[1:18:50] rean and um I mean I I feel very
[1:18:54] strongly about that I think these women
[1:18:56] are way off base huh is it Vengeance
[1:18:58] involved in some way it could be an also
[1:19:00] a terrific desire to control in some
[1:19:02] ways a lot of these women wanted to
[1:19:03] control their fathers and couldn't do it
[1:19:05] and now if they get a young male in
[1:19:07] there they can control them
[1:19:09] completely I I don't look on it as a
[1:19:11] happy thing uh those kind of marriages
[1:19:15] and those kind of those kind of uh
[1:19:17] childhoods yes I don't have I don't have
[1:19:20] a clear formulation for this question
[1:19:21] but I'm I'm uh curious about how uh you
[1:19:25] you'd fit an anti-war perspective in
[1:19:27] here I would like to hope that someday
[1:19:29] we can transcend uh some sort of human
[1:19:32] characteristic or tendency toward War if
[1:19:34] that's a fair characterization and how
[1:19:36] can tying backwards into uh the way
[1:19:40] primitive cultures do things help us do
[1:19:42] that well I don't know that's a big
[1:19:43] question but you know I I did a lot of
[1:19:45] work in the antiwar movement in the
[1:19:47] Vietnam War and I don't feel it's
[1:19:48] contradictory here one of the ways to
[1:19:51] say that I think is that Keith here was
[1:19:53] talking about the difference between the
[1:19:55] wild man and the Savage man The Savage
[1:19:59] man is the one who's hiding his
[1:20:01] wound who then inflicts it on
[1:20:07] others you're talking about a lot of
[1:20:09] Pentagon people right
[1:20:11] there and the more the man goes into his
[1:20:13] wound the less likely he is to inflict
[1:20:15] it on others he's living in here in his
[1:20:19] wound H and I also have the feeling
[1:20:22] which I mentioned in the little flyer
[1:20:23] here that the deeper the male goes into
[1:20:24] his grief and his wound the deeper
[1:20:26] spontaneity is and if anything was off
[1:20:29] in the Vietnam Wars a total lack of
[1:20:31] spontaneity we just couldn't react the
[1:20:33] Pentagon couldn't react you know when
[1:20:35] something happened whole thing does that
[1:20:36] help it all yeah thank you please the
[1:20:39] the point just listen to a couple of
[1:20:42] times about finding the
[1:20:44] father um really I wonder if that isn't
[1:20:48] a different activity than sort of
[1:20:50] recovering the Eternal boy or growing up
[1:20:54] the eternal
[1:20:56] I was talking about finding the father I
[1:20:57] was talking more in this area of being
[1:20:59] separated from your father and he's
[1:21:02] lost and one of the old traditions is
[1:21:05] this one you will never get a clear
[1:21:07] picture of your father from your
[1:21:10] mother because the father and the mother
[1:21:13] are competing for your affection you
[1:21:15] mustn't expect it and um I'll tell you a
[1:21:19] story that moved me very much on that uh
[1:21:22] friend of mine I got to be about 35 or
[1:21:25] six and uh I saw him and he said uh tell
[1:21:29] you what happened to me I've been
[1:21:30] separated from my father for over 10
[1:21:32] years after he left 10 15 years and I
[1:21:35] began to realize the truth of what you
[1:21:36] were saying he hadn't heard me say it
[1:21:38] he'd come to that conclusion himself so
[1:21:39] I said what happened he said I I flew
[1:21:42] out to
[1:21:43] Seattle I found I knew my father's
[1:21:45] address I flew out to Seattle I went and
[1:21:47] unlocked in the
[1:21:48] door my father answered the door and I
[1:21:51] said to
[1:21:52] him um I want to say something to you
[1:21:55] I want you to understand that I don't
[1:21:58] accept anymore my mother's view of
[1:22:01] you I said what did he do said he burst
[1:22:05] into tears and he said now I can
[1:22:11] die that's called finding the
[1:22:13] father yes please the
[1:22:17] U that whole business with incest uh not
[1:22:21] only sexual abuse but incest destroying
[1:22:23] the family uh there's two types there's
[1:22:27] the overt which is what everybody's
[1:22:29] talking about and then there's what
[1:22:30] you've been talking about right along
[1:22:32] which is the cobt yep and that's what we
[1:22:34] are not doing we are many of us are
[1:22:37] males are victims of the covert incest
[1:22:40] of our mother because our father wasn't
[1:22:41] there Y and we didn't ever steal the key
[1:22:44] so people say to me what is the function
[1:22:46] of a father one of the major functions
[1:22:48] of a father is to come between your
[1:22:50] mother and your son and say
[1:22:52] enough that's it
[1:22:55] and it has to be understood as your
[1:22:57] function because in our culture that's
[1:22:58] just tremendous that that psychic incest
[1:23:01] going on there there's no one that can
[1:23:02] move in there except the father and he
[1:23:04] has to understand that that's not
[1:23:06] disloyalty to your wife it's loyalty to
[1:23:08] your son how does that affect
[1:23:11] girls you you you talk about this in
[1:23:14] terms of a boy a little boy how does it
[1:23:16] affect no father with a little girl with
[1:23:20] little well one thing you can say I
[1:23:22] don't know we must stop I understand I'm
[1:23:24] just going to get this one out out here
[1:23:25] if I can that the incest thing is very
[1:23:27] strong with the women to there's often
[1:23:29] psychic incest with the father when the
[1:23:30] father's in the house and it's up to the
[1:23:32] father to know how far you can flirt and
[1:23:34] how far you can't flirt that you're
[1:23:36] holding a lot of that energy it's got to
[1:23:37] be held in a very delicate way and me
[1:23:40] held it's got to be warm you got to hold
[1:23:42] it warmly so that you can pass it on and
[1:23:44] she'll have it hold and can give it to a
[1:23:46] male but if the father's out of the
[1:23:48] house then it's given to a remote father
[1:23:51] and then it becomes cold a lot of that
[1:23:53] Sexual Energy she gives to the father
[1:23:54] becomes cold and then when she passes it
[1:23:56] on it's cold you understand what I'm
[1:23:58] saying it's too fast to do this this way
[1:24:01] but anyway I'm interested that you Comm
[1:24:02] into these areas of grief because that's
[1:24:05] where I think we belonged for a while
[1:24:07] and I think we must go yes we come back
[1:24:10] sometimes six months or a year and talk
[1:24:12] more about I will come back in 6 months
[1:24:14] and I'll tell a third part of the story
[1:24:25] thank you