Transcript
[0:01] hello everyone and welcome thomas hubel
[0:04] is a renowned teacher
[0:05] author and international facilitator who
[0:07] integrates the core insights
[0:09] of the great wisdom traditions with the
[0:11] discoveries of science
[0:13] he has worked with more than 100 000
[0:15] people worldwide
[0:16] through workshops multi-year training
[0:18] programs and online courses
[0:20] thomas is also the host of the annual
[0:23] collective trauma summit
[0:25] and the author of the book entitled
[0:27] healing collective trauma
[0:28] a process for integrating our
[0:30] intergenerational and cultural wounds
[0:33] you can find that on amazon or any
[0:35] bookseller that was released
[0:36] late last year now let me introduce
[0:39] terry terry real
[0:40] is the best-selling author and founder
[0:42] of the relational life institute
[0:45] uh which offers workshops for couples
[0:47] individuals and parents
[0:48] as as well as professional training
[0:50] programs for clinicians
[0:52] terry's work is known for its rigorous
[0:54] common sense approach
[0:56] which speaks to both men and women a
[0:58] proponent of full throttle marriage
[1:00] terry has been called the most
[1:01] innovative voice
[1:02] in thinking about and treating men and
[1:04] their relationships in the world today
[1:06] he's the author of multiple books
[1:08] including i don't want to talk about it
[1:10] overcoming the secret legacy of male
[1:12] depression and the new rules of marriage
[1:14] what you need to know to make love work
[1:17] lovely thank you
[1:19] okay and uh it's really a pleasure to be
[1:22] facilitating this
[1:23] um i both of these teachers are just
[1:26] extraordinary made such an impact in my
[1:28] life
[1:29] and i'm going to go ahead and turn it
[1:30] over to them for today's presentation
[1:32] on hidden effects of trauma in
[1:34] relationships and i think you're going
[1:36] to go ahead and start thomas so i'm
[1:37] going to hand it over to you
[1:39] yeah thank you richard first of all
[1:40] welcome terry i'm happy to be here with
[1:42] you
[1:43] thank you very much all right all right
[1:47] and welcome everybody here on this call
[1:49] so many people
[1:51] were interested or interested in this uh
[1:53] today so
[1:55] since we're coming from all over the
[1:58] world and we are coming into this call
[2:02] from different daily activities maybe
[2:05] we'll just take a moment
[2:06] since we talk about trauma trauma is
[2:09] being revealed through
[2:10] awareness and often
[2:14] the after effects of trauma don't allow
[2:17] us
[2:17] to get really centered properly in order
[2:21] to take care of it so we
[2:23] can take a minute to just arrive here in
[2:26] the room
[2:27] and the best way to arrive and center
[2:30] ourselves is
[2:31] our is our body and our breath so maybe
[2:36] we take a moment to just
[2:38] uh listen and feel into
[2:41] the way we are breathing or the way
[2:44] you're breathing right now
[2:47] [Music]
[2:49] and
[2:50] and just take a moment to see wherever
[2:53] you
[2:54] come from to join this class whatever is
[2:57] going on
[2:58] the level of activity the level of
[3:01] stress
[3:04] so the level of relaxation
[3:05] [Music]
[3:09] and your breath is the perfect guide
[3:12] to connect you to your body
[3:17] we're gonna speak later about okay
[3:19] what's the nature of trauma and
[3:22] how does trauma affect our lives and our
[3:24] intimate relationships
[3:27] trauma in itself lives very much in our
[3:31] body
[3:33] and and the healing of drama
[3:36] is also going through our body
[3:41] so when you take a moment and see when
[3:43] you connect to your body and
[3:47] just get a sense of your physical body
[3:52] the way you're sitting breathing
[4:10] and then for a moment just to slow down
[4:13] the way you
[4:14] exhale a little bit
[4:18] prolong your exhalation
[4:31] see if you just
[4:34] enjoy the sensations that you feel in
[4:37] your body
[4:39] there's a lot of movement
[4:42] going on
[4:43] [Music]
[4:46] inside of our bodies like pulsing
[4:48] streaming
[4:50] low sensations maybe also stress
[4:55] make some tensions it's a whole
[5:09] composition
[5:13] then for one moment to check in
[5:17] what is actually aware of the fact that
[5:20] you
[5:24] feel your body right now what is the
[5:27] part of you
[5:29] that is aware that you feel yourself
[5:37] it's the awareness right now
[5:43] feeling yourself
[6:02] right and then we gently
[6:05] open our eyes again or
[6:09] start with our conversation theory
[6:14] and i think the richest statement
[6:18] was a beautiful reminder of um
[6:23] also the nature of our intimate
[6:25] relationship
[6:26] so there is the ideal version of
[6:29] of our life and then there is the real
[6:31] version of our life
[6:34] interruptions come in when trigger
[6:37] moments come in
[6:38] and so that's what terry and i'm are
[6:40] going to talk about
[6:42] and the reason why i ask you to connect
[6:45] to your body is
[6:46] because what we are sharing today
[6:50] is something that's kind of a longer
[6:52] term practice
[6:54] it's something that we can get better at
[6:56] that
[6:57] many people who practice awareness
[6:59] practices see
[7:01] not an immediate jump but the
[7:04] long-term progression so that awareness
[7:07] and also the part that is aware of
[7:10] our internal process is an amazing
[7:13] resource
[7:14] same as our body awareness the way how
[7:17] we learn to center ourselves
[7:20] and just at the beginning
[7:23] a short introduction so when we hear
[7:27] trauma we often think of
[7:31] i don't know car accidents or massive
[7:34] abuse
[7:35] or we think of a war situation
[7:38] but actually trauma can be
[7:41] much more subtle than that and it's
[7:43] still traumatizing
[7:45] many of us in the early years of our
[7:47] lives
[7:48] went through overwhelming situations so
[7:51] trauma is
[7:52] an overwhelming situation
[7:56] but it's not the situation that we go
[7:59] through it's what that situation
[8:01] triggers in us so trauma is not the
[8:04] external event it's the
[8:06] internal process
[8:09] that's happening when we are going
[8:11] through a very overwhelming situation
[8:15] and what's happening when we are going
[8:16] through a very overwhelming situation
[8:18] is two things one is that we are super
[8:21] stressed
[8:23] and we we all might know moments when we
[8:26] come into
[8:27] high levels of stress also in intimate
[8:30] relationship
[8:31] arguments where we become very defensive
[8:34] and we either want to run away or we
[8:35] want to
[8:36] fight and when that exceeds and that
[8:39] stress level in a traumatizing situation
[8:41] exceeds that level so we become frozen
[8:46] which means that the real pain in us
[8:49] the deepest pain is actually mute
[8:54] and so one part of us is super stressed
[8:58] and another part in us like there is we
[9:01] there's kind of a fragmentation and
[9:04] we numb the part of us that is so
[9:06] overwhelmed
[9:08] in order to survive better and that's
[9:11] different for a child at age one
[9:15] or a child that's experiences bullying
[9:19] at school
[9:20] or somebody that has a car accident as a
[9:22] grown-up of course the intensity is
[9:24] different
[9:25] but the process inside is very similar
[9:29] and what what i want to point out at the
[9:32] beginning
[9:33] that when we talk about trauma we are
[9:36] talking that
[9:38] that internal process we are talking
[9:41] about something
[9:42] very intelligent that life learned over
[9:46] thousands and thousands of years
[9:48] we developed a pro and internal
[9:51] processes humanity
[9:52] all our ancestors going through
[9:54] overwhelming situations
[9:56] developed in a way a process that is
[9:58] alive in us
[10:00] that protects us so that trauma response
[10:03] is actually a very intelligent process
[10:06] but if we don't take care of it properly
[10:09] afterwards
[10:10] it creates a lot of symptoms and we see
[10:13] those symptoms
[10:14] every time we become highly reactive
[10:17] or defensive or shut down then
[10:21] we get triggered by our partners and
[10:23] then often our partners become the
[10:25] projection surface
[10:27] of stuff that happened way way earlier
[10:30] in our life and i know terry you're
[10:32] gonna
[10:33] continue from here so that's that's a
[10:35] basic
[10:36] definition of trauma that's it's it's
[10:39] very simplified now for
[10:41] the purpose of our conversation today
[10:44] but
[10:44] maybe terry you can take it from here
[10:46] and see how that relates to your love
[10:49] yeah great i i just want to say two
[10:51] things
[10:53] um when we think about trauma often we
[10:57] think about
[10:57] catastrophic life and limb kind of
[11:00] trauma which is real
[11:02] but as a therapist i also think about
[11:04] what i call relational trauma
[11:07] the kind of for example misattunement
[11:10] between parent and child or
[11:13] anger in the household that repeats over
[11:16] and over and over again it's not
[11:19] threatening life and limb but it does
[11:21] tremendous damage
[11:22] relational trauma and i also think about
[11:25] the difference between
[11:27] active trauma which is something that
[11:30] shouldn't be there
[11:31] anger control sexuality
[11:34] and passive trauma which is more of an
[11:37] absence
[11:38] you can be overwhelmed by a parent
[11:41] screaming at you
[11:42] you can also be overwhelmed with
[11:44] loneliness when a parent
[11:45] isn't with you so both of those things
[11:49] are traumatic
[11:50] when we think about trauma for the most
[11:52] part
[11:53] we think about the wound
[11:57] i call it the wounded child part of us
[12:00] which is very young when you work with
[12:02] it
[12:03] and uh usually about first moments of
[12:06] life to four or five years old
[12:09] and that part of us uh which is very
[12:12] back in the relational uh brain the
[12:15] emotional brain the limbic system and
[12:17] amygdala
[12:18] that that part of us is just reacting to
[12:21] what we've had that's the overwhelm the
[12:24] the wound
[12:24] in us is always overwhelmed
[12:28] between the wound and the wise adult
[12:32] part of us
[12:33] the uh prefrontal cortex the part of us
[12:36] that's here and now
[12:37] and thoughtful and deliberate is that
[12:40] adaptation
[12:41] that intelligent adaptation that you
[12:44] were talking about and
[12:47] in relationships what we often see
[12:51] is that the wound in
[12:55] us gets stimulated but as you say it's
[12:58] often cut off
[13:00] we don't feel the wound consciously
[13:03] or we can feel it for about 10 seconds
[13:06] and then
[13:06] the adaptive child part of us comes in
[13:09] to take over
[13:11] so what we see in relationships is
[13:13] rarely
[13:14] you know somebody says something and
[13:15] then you just fall apart
[13:17] what we see in relationships is somebody
[13:19] says something and then you fight or you
[13:22] flee
[13:22] or you fix or you freeze but you
[13:25] move into your characteristic
[13:28] adaptation that you repeat over and over
[13:31] and over again
[13:32] it's fueled by the wound
[13:35] but you don't see the wound you see the
[13:38] adaptation to the world
[13:41] just to underline what uh terry said now
[13:45] is that first of all attachment
[13:48] trauma is way more subtle so even
[13:51] people did it first might say no i'm not
[13:54] traumatized
[13:56] that i would have a second look at least
[13:59] because
[14:00] like we we might not have a major event
[14:03] in our life that we can classify as a
[14:05] biographical trauma
[14:07] but attachment trauma is usually neglect
[14:10] or
[14:11] chronic fight situations in the family
[14:14] systems between the parents
[14:16] that is a different level of trauma but
[14:19] it still creates a lot of
[14:21] pain inside and and the attachment
[14:25] process is
[14:26] very fragile it's very subtle it's very
[14:28] beautiful but it needs a lot of
[14:30] sensitivity and openness and relation
[14:33] and so let's talk a little bit about
[14:36] what
[14:37] is relating because we often talk about
[14:41] relation as if it's a thing
[14:44] there is a relation or there is a
[14:46] marriage it's like a thing it said
[14:49] but actually now when i look at terry
[14:51] when i look at you if i
[14:53] may so then when i look at terry
[14:56] i see a beautiful friend and
[15:00] but the terry and the friend that i see
[15:03] is happening in my brain
[15:07] now if the terry out there
[15:10] and the terry in my brain are the same
[15:16] that i don't know first of all i don't
[15:17] know i need to leave
[15:19] space that i see terry only to a certain
[15:23] extent
[15:24] given my own past where i am traumatized
[15:27] i can't see and feel him
[15:29] and here we are with the next point like
[15:32] there is
[15:32] seeing i see terry my perception is
[15:35] already in my central nervous system
[15:38] so the the language of relation is
[15:41] resonance
[15:42] and resonance needs feeling and sensing
[15:46] so when i see terry and feel terry
[15:49] it's like when you you know all the new
[15:52] streaming technologies
[15:54] like you watch a movie either you
[15:55] download your movie
[15:57] and you have it on your hard disk and
[15:59] then you watch the movie that you
[16:01] already stored on your computer let's
[16:03] say
[16:04] or the more modern version
[16:07] most probably is that you stream it on a
[16:09] streaming platform like now
[16:11] the fact that you can listen to us
[16:13] fluidly and it's
[16:15] not getting stuck every 10 seconds
[16:16] hopefully for you
[16:18] right now so that means that the data
[16:21] is streaming well relation or relating
[16:25] is data streaming and
[16:28] so i can update terry in me
[16:32] moment to moment through data streaming
[16:34] which means through feeling him
[16:36] if i feel him i have a moment to moment
[16:39] update like a camera that makes many
[16:41] photos so it becomes a movie
[16:44] if i if i get triggered by terry and i
[16:47] withdraw
[16:48] i don't feel him anymore and then
[16:52] terry in thomas gets old
[16:55] i'm looking at an image in myself not
[16:58] anymore the resonant
[16:59] updated version of terry
[17:02] and that's what we often see because
[17:04] trauma in many ways
[17:06] is being inflicted through inappropriate
[17:10] relations
[17:11] through relations that were already hurt
[17:13] before
[17:14] and let's say our parents were
[17:16] traumatized we are growing up in a
[17:18] traumatized
[17:19] family system and of course a part of
[17:22] that gets
[17:22] transferred to us so trauma
[17:26] her is being inflicted through
[17:28] inappropriate relation
[17:30] and it creates a hurt in the process of
[17:33] relating
[17:35] because relating means i feel
[17:38] you feeling me i feel
[17:41] you and how you feel me that's the music
[17:45] of relation that's a ding
[17:46] dong that's and when we hit trauma
[17:52] and so that is very important because
[17:56] often we think of relation as a thing
[17:59] as something but actually what really is
[18:02] relating is a data stream online between
[18:05] me and my partner between me and my kids
[18:09] and between me
[18:10] and colleagues at work i feel you
[18:12] feeling me
[18:13] is the basic attachment music and that's
[18:16] called new reception
[18:18] and your reception is the basic
[18:21] uh sense our body feels if another
[18:25] person
[18:26] feels us so if i feel you
[18:30] your nervous system picks up on me
[18:32] feeling you
[18:33] and that creates a deeper sense of
[18:35] safety if i don't feel you
[18:37] your nervous system picks up on that too
[18:40] without your conscious minds
[18:42] even being necessarily aware of it and
[18:44] it creates already a bit of
[18:47] stress and especially with our kids and
[18:50] also with us
[18:51] when we were kids that sensing i feel
[18:54] you feeling me
[18:55] is the basic feeling of relational
[18:58] safety
[18:59] and so i wanted to speak a little bit
[19:02] about
[19:02] because trauma hurts that process and
[19:05] often when we are triggered we can't
[19:07] feel our partner anymore because we feel
[19:09] walled off or retracted and maybe you
[19:11] want to speak a little bit to
[19:13] how that might look like in in our daily
[19:16] intimate relationship
[19:17] experience yeah exactly thomas um
[19:21] i feel you feeling me i love that phrase
[19:23] that is what intimacy is it's an
[19:26] interpenetration inter-subjectivity
[19:29] you say something it goes into me
[19:32] it kicks around with what i've got i
[19:34] react to it and then i say something
[19:36] that goes into you
[19:37] and it's a living real time process
[19:41] trauma triggering freezes that process
[19:46] and the another way of saying it is when
[19:49] you're
[19:49] in the flow of the open system i feel
[19:52] you
[19:52] feeling me you're in the prefrontal
[19:55] cortex you're in
[19:56] the most mature part of your brain
[19:58] you're in the wise adult
[20:00] part of you triggering means that you're
[20:04] going to slip into your adaptive child
[20:06] and when you're in the adaptive child
[20:09] part
[20:10] one of the bitter pills to swallow is
[20:12] the adaptive child part of us
[20:14] is not interested in i feel you
[20:17] feeling me the adaptive child part of us
[20:20] is interested in one thing
[20:22] self-preservation and so
[20:25] when i get trauma triggered and then
[20:27] when i slip into my usual
[20:30] adaptation to my trauma i stop
[20:33] feeling you and i'm referencing some
[20:36] image that i have of you from way uh
[20:40] back we we speak about this as implicit
[20:42] memory
[20:43] i have an implicit negative expectation
[20:46] of how you're going to be with me
[20:49] not based on what's in front of me but
[20:51] based on what's behind me
[20:53] i you know i've heard you say that in
[20:56] relationships the greatest gift we give
[20:58] each other is our presence
[21:00] and you can't be present with somebody
[21:02] if you're not
[21:03] in the presence and what happens with
[21:06] trauma is that our history overtakes the
[21:09] present
[21:10] and we are back there you don't remember
[21:13] trauma you relive it
[21:15] and so what happens is a kind of in
[21:18] relationships is what i call mutual
[21:20] triggering
[21:22] if one of you gets triggered and the
[21:24] other one holds firm
[21:26] you're in pretty good shape i i get to
[21:28] say everybody in a relationship
[21:30] gets to go crazy but you have to take
[21:32] turns so if
[21:34] one of you is off and the other one
[21:36] stays put that's a good day for you
[21:39] uh if both of you go off then that's
[21:42] when
[21:42] the difficult uh vicious cycle repeats
[21:46] and keeps going on
[21:48] the way mutual triggering works is so
[21:51] for example
[21:52] my wife belinda and i both come from
[21:54] fighting families we both come from
[21:55] fairly violent
[21:56] critical families belinda walks in the
[21:59] door
[22:00] and she goes i can't believe what a mess
[22:01] it is in here
[22:03] i immediately get triggered my wounded
[22:06] child gets triggered
[22:08] i'm like three or four years old and my
[22:10] big father is standing there yelling at
[22:12] me the way he did
[22:13] i'm no longer talking to belinda i'm
[22:15] that little boy talking to this big
[22:18] towering figure my ad
[22:21] i have about two seconds worth of
[22:23] tolerance for those feelings of
[22:24] helplessness
[22:25] and i get pumped up into my adaptation
[22:28] which is fight
[22:30] now i can't believe it you walk in and
[22:32] you do this
[22:33] now when i get critical of belinda guess
[22:35] what happens to her
[22:37] her wounded child gets trauma triggered
[22:39] she's that little girl facing her
[22:41] screaming mother
[22:42] not me and her adaptation
[22:46] her adaptive child comes in to take over
[22:48] which is fight
[22:50] where symmetrical couple fight me's
[22:52] fight and there we are
[22:54] when you're in these kinds of vicious
[22:56] circles
[22:57] your its adaptive child meets adaptive
[23:00] child
[23:01] the two of you the real adults can sit
[23:04] down and have a beer
[23:05] because they're duking it out it's got
[23:07] nothing to do with
[23:08] you anymore and so the first
[23:11] skill i believe the proto skill
[23:16] i call relational mindfulness and i'm
[23:18] sure you're going to have a lot to say
[23:19] about this thomas
[23:21] but the first skill is and this can be
[23:23] cultivated
[23:25] is that you take a breath you realize
[23:29] that you've been
[23:30] triggered uh and you bring some
[23:33] br i've heard you say i love this line
[23:36] of yours
[23:38] in relationships urgency is our enemy
[23:41] and breath
[23:42] is our friend you take that breath
[23:45] and you get yourself centered in your
[23:48] body
[23:49] and you bring yourself out of that
[23:51] triggered adaptive child
[23:53] back into the wise adult part of you
[23:56] i call this in real life remembering
[23:59] love
[24:01] you you move out of the adversarial
[24:04] me versus you of the adaptive child
[24:07] into the abundant us the whole
[24:11] of the relationship that the wise adult
[24:14] can appreciate you remember that the
[24:17] person you're speaking to is not your
[24:19] enemy
[24:20] but someone you love or
[24:23] said differently you remember the whole
[24:26] you remember the ecology
[24:27] our relationships are like our
[24:29] biospheres
[24:30] and you remember that this is not a
[24:33] win-lose zero-sum
[24:34] game there's enough here for everybody
[24:37] if we can keep centered in the hole
[24:40] which means getting centered in our own
[24:42] selves
[24:43] that's beautiful terry also that when we
[24:46] come back
[24:47] we we often i often say in the in the
[24:50] healing work that
[24:51] in doubt come back to the closest circle
[24:54] of intimacy which is your self-contact
[24:57] you feeling yourself so if you get
[25:00] triggered in life or if you get unclear
[25:02] or whatever
[25:03] so i take a breath and i see if i can
[25:06] reconnect to my body
[25:08] and if i can practice that at least five
[25:11] minutes every day in the morning
[25:13] i mean the longer the better but five
[25:16] minutes
[25:17] my breath is my best friend or one of my
[25:20] best friends because it's with me from
[25:22] day one
[25:23] of the birth and it's wired in my
[25:27] nervous system
[25:28] ever since so when i'm breathing i can
[25:31] get access
[25:32] to my body contact and my body is the
[25:36] grounding of stress
[25:37] as you said before like when trauma gets
[25:40] triggered
[25:41] there are few things that usually come
[25:43] with it
[25:45] i feel separate there's me
[25:48] and there is you there's not anymore us
[25:51] me and you are over there before we were
[25:54] together in a flow
[25:56] it's very important flow states are
[25:58] relational
[25:59] exchange me here you over there
[26:02] there is usually separation and that
[26:04] separation
[26:06] is an illusion but it's so true in that
[26:09] moment
[26:09] because everything in me believes in the
[26:12] trauma fragmentation
[26:13] it comes with feelings of the past like
[26:16] fear or
[26:17] shame or anger or other
[26:20] emotional sensations or sensations of
[26:23] numbness
[26:25] so that i simply don't feel myself
[26:27] anymore
[26:28] and when that happens i need to come
[26:31] back to a place that i can
[26:32] sense and feel in myself and then from
[26:35] me
[26:36] to you because trauma has another
[26:40] um uh symptom
[26:43] that it comes with that is i'm speeding
[26:46] up
[26:46] i'm getting really stressed i'm getting
[26:48] fast if i'm getting fast i need to slow
[26:50] down
[26:51] and trauma comes with a sense of
[26:53] scarcity
[26:54] every time we hit trauma it feels like
[26:56] something is not enough
[26:58] there's not enough for me and there's
[26:59] not enough for you there's not enough
[27:01] time there's not enough space there's
[27:03] not enough something
[27:04] and and when we sense that we know this
[27:08] is a symptom it's not the trauma itself
[27:11] as you said there the trauma itself is
[27:13] hidden in our unconscious
[27:15] most of the time but the sensations that
[27:18] come from the place
[27:19] are very very strong because what we
[27:21] experienced at that time
[27:23] really overwhelmed us and we become
[27:26] defensive
[27:27] and those defense mechanisms were
[27:29] intelligent functions that
[27:31] how that was the best that we could do
[27:33] as a kid
[27:34] or at that time to help ourselves and of
[27:37] course today
[27:38] it it creates a lot of symptoms in our
[27:40] relationships
[27:42] and and maybe the last part it is
[27:45] something
[27:46] very tiny but super important
[27:50] i said before me being related to terry
[27:54] right now means me feeling him
[27:59] and when when we hit the trauma in us
[28:03] since
[28:04] in the moment of traumatization
[28:06] something is so overwhelming that we
[28:08] shut down a part of ourselves
[28:10] usually that bridge me being able to
[28:14] feel myself and to feel my surrounding
[28:19] is being hurt or broken in that moment
[28:22] when the trauma gets triggered
[28:24] then i can't anymore feel him and
[28:27] me at the same time and i think when we
[28:30] notice that we need a practice
[28:33] and i remember when we
[28:36] did our last course last year you said
[28:39] something very powerful terry you said
[28:41] that you you spoke about the moment with
[28:43] your wife with belinda
[28:45] and you said there was a moment where
[28:47] you
[28:48] felt either i step
[28:51] into the reactive part or i can stay and
[28:55] witness that reactive part but not go
[28:58] down
[28:58] that route and and that moment where
[29:03] like a choice comes back in the when the
[29:06] reactivity
[29:07] kicks in and we have a freedom
[29:11] to not choose that route that's a very
[29:15] powerful function for most of us
[29:18] it comes through a practice and i know
[29:21] you
[29:21] practiced that in your life for many
[29:23] many years
[29:24] so that a moment of choice where it
[29:27] seems like we don't have a choice
[29:29] we go back to the same argument with our
[29:32] partner again
[29:32] and we go back to the same argument
[29:35] again so
[29:37] at that moment to have a choice is
[29:39] really
[29:40] very very a very powerful fruit
[29:44] of an ongoing practice and i think
[29:47] that's what you also
[29:48] speak a lot about i think that's right
[29:50] the hallmark of the
[29:52] adaptive child part of us is that it's
[29:54] automatic
[29:55] it's very fast knee-jerk fight
[29:59] flight fix or freeze are
[30:02] the usual and perhaps those listening
[30:04] could take a moment
[30:06] and just sort of out yourself to
[30:09] yourself
[30:09] when you're in that reactive state
[30:12] do you tend to fight do you tend to flee
[30:15] and you can flee while sitting six
[30:18] inches in front of somebody that's
[30:20] called
[30:20] stonewalling do you try and fix it
[30:23] compulsively and make it all better
[30:25] or do you freeze any of those responses
[30:29] are automatic
[30:30] the blessing the grace comes in
[30:33] when you can take a breath realize that
[30:36] you're triggered
[30:38] and choose another path it's
[30:41] only the adult part of us that can do
[30:44] that
[30:45] the adaptive channel part of us is too
[30:47] automatic so we have to get a little bit
[30:49] centered
[30:50] and then make a different choice
[30:53] i i always wanted to make a t-shirt for
[30:56] our institute and on the front it would
[30:58] say something like
[30:59] relational living and on the back it
[31:01] would say i
[31:02] choose door b i know
[31:06] door a with belinda getting angry at her
[31:09] i know exactly what lays behind that
[31:12] door i've been
[31:12] through that door a million times in
[31:15] this
[31:16] moment and the work of relationships is
[31:18] in
[31:19] the moment not day by day in this moment
[31:22] right now
[31:23] am i going to choose reactivity and the
[31:26] usual
[31:27] or am i going to get centered and do
[31:29] something deliberate
[31:31] and different i choose door b
[31:34] and more and more as we do this practice
[31:37] both in our lives and also i want to say
[31:40] on the pillow i'll say in
[31:41] a moment about that as we make this
[31:44] work as we strengthen these muscles
[31:47] then dorby becomes more and more
[31:50] available to us
[31:52] and for the practitioners who are
[31:54] listening to us
[31:55] the time that you do spend in meditation
[31:58] in the morning or whatever
[32:00] uh is a kind of a big version of what
[32:03] i'm talking about
[32:04] and when you're facing your partner and
[32:07] they're
[32:07] upset with you and you have that i call
[32:10] it whoosh
[32:10] the w-h-o-o-s-a that wave that comes up
[32:14] of reactivity
[32:15] the time that you spent meditating will
[32:18] be in
[32:19] in your favor now because you're having
[32:22] a moment of the same kind of attentional
[32:24] practice
[32:25] uh but it's in real time with live ammo
[32:27] with your partner
[32:29] so i i don't see the two as
[32:32] contradictory they actually feed on each
[32:34] other and support each other
[32:37] right and and another great resource
[32:41] that we mentioned before is simply the
[32:43] capacity to
[32:44] feel the life parts of our body like the
[32:47] resources in our body that can help us
[32:50] to
[32:50] find a self-contact in the moment to
[32:53] slow down
[32:55] and to regulate ourselves and then
[32:58] um and then i want to talk a little bit
[33:01] about
[33:02] because usually you know many people
[33:04] might think oh my body is
[33:06] maybe 40 50 60 70 years old but
[33:11] in fact my body is hundreds of thousands
[33:15] of years and even millions of years old
[33:18] because that's the time
[33:19] that life needed to develop
[33:23] the model that comes with our lifetime
[33:27] so what the emotional system the
[33:30] physical systems our organs
[33:32] our thinking has been developed over a
[33:35] very long time through our ancestors and
[33:37] our ancestors went through trauma
[33:40] and we are not the first ones that are
[33:42] healing trauma so
[33:44] multiple traditions in the past plus
[33:46] genetic recombination
[33:48] and and different family systems like
[33:51] we got traumatized and we already healed
[33:54] drama in the past
[33:56] so even if we didn't call it that way
[33:59] and
[34:00] and so now here we are with all that
[34:03] wisdom
[34:04] in our being like our bodies our
[34:08] emotional systems our self-healing
[34:10] mechanisms our nervous systems are
[34:12] highly developed
[34:13] over a very long period of time and we
[34:17] have
[34:17] access to that wisdom
[34:20] because we are not the first ones living
[34:22] and we are not the first ones
[34:24] hitting relationship difficulties so
[34:27] there are the resources that come
[34:29] through the ancestral stream
[34:31] to us and then of course like
[34:35] if my parents or my grandparents or my
[34:38] great-grandparents
[34:39] were traumatized and that trauma kind of
[34:42] jumps
[34:43] generations and those tendencies we call
[34:47] them tendencies because
[34:48] we didn't i didn't experience the trauma
[34:51] of my
[34:52] grandmother going through the second
[34:54] world war
[34:56] but i might feel the after effects
[34:59] of the stress and what my grandfather's
[35:03] trauma in the second world war i might
[35:05] feel the stress or maybe the anxiety or
[35:08] maybe
[35:08] other aspects in my own experience
[35:13] and so the ancestral
[35:16] transmission of trauma is very important
[35:18] too because we are sitting
[35:20] we grew up in a family system that had
[35:22] already tendencies that wasn't a white
[35:24] sheet of paper
[35:26] that had already many tendencies and
[35:28] imprints that we grew up in
[35:30] as well as our society around us our
[35:33] teachers
[35:34] and and different circles of society
[35:37] and what i'm saying is that in the
[35:40] process of
[35:41] healing ourselves
[35:45] not only when we heal something in
[35:47] ourselves
[35:48] we actually also send a ripple effect
[35:51] back in time
[35:52] into our ancestral tree
[35:56] but we also
[35:59] sometimes try to deny
[36:03] no i don't want to look back and examine
[36:07] our ancestors and like my grandparents
[36:10] and
[36:10] great-grandparents lives because i think
[36:13] it's too much for me and i
[36:15] i'm just looking forward but everything
[36:18] that i deny in my past
[36:22] it's only the past because it's split
[36:24] off otherwise it would be integrated
[36:26] life
[36:26] here every time we integrate trauma it
[36:29] becomes learning
[36:30] every time we leave trauma unexamined
[36:34] examined we we actually carry that past
[36:38] with us
[36:39] and of course the examination and the
[36:42] the the integration process needs to be
[36:46] appropriate
[36:48] but denying the past just keeps it
[36:51] living
[36:52] it doesn't disappear on its own it needs
[36:54] us that's why
[36:55] it's also part of our purpose our life
[36:57] purpose is not only our career
[37:00] and where we are going to and how
[37:02] creative we are
[37:03] our life purpose is also integrating the
[37:06] legacy
[37:08] that has been handed off to us so what
[37:10] our what our ancestors didn't take care
[37:12] of
[37:12] is now in our hands and and we are
[37:15] walking with that and we can either
[37:17] either pass it on as well
[37:19] or we can say okay that's part of my
[37:22] life and that's part of my life purpose
[37:25] and
[37:25] i'm going to be the one that is going to
[37:28] look
[37:29] i'm going to look step by step as i can
[37:33] with the support that i have available
[37:35] to
[37:36] examine that and to stop that process of
[37:39] passing it on to the next generations
[37:42] and maybe terry
[37:43] maybe you want to speak a little bit
[37:45] about that too about the
[37:46] ancestral transmission that uh it didn't
[37:49] start just with us
[37:51] as a family therapist i'd learned uh
[37:54] from my early training about what we
[37:56] call multi-generational
[37:58] uh legacies you know the
[38:01] grandfather was a rager
[38:03] great-grandfather was a rager
[38:04] father was a rager the sister marries a
[38:07] rager
[38:08] how these things get passed on and what
[38:11] i
[38:12] came to realize is that the actual
[38:14] mechanism of the transmission
[38:16] is trauma like my father was
[38:20] a violent and when he was being violent
[38:23] toward me
[38:24] he was both disempowering me on the
[38:27] receiving end
[38:28] i was shamed and made small but he was
[38:31] also transmitting a message that this is
[38:33] what a grown man looks like when he gets
[38:35] angry
[38:36] and this is okay these legacies
[38:39] of both shame and grandiosity both
[38:42] inferiority and
[38:44] superiority get passed on generation to
[38:46] generation
[38:47] in fact i have a quote if i may quote
[38:50] myself
[38:51] that they say it's pretentious to do
[38:53] that but i i always quote this quote
[38:56] it's from my first book i don't want to
[38:58] talk about it
[39:00] family pathology rolls
[39:03] from generation to generation like a
[39:07] fire
[39:07] in the woods taking down everything in
[39:10] its path
[39:11] until one person in one generation
[39:14] has the courage to turn and face the
[39:17] flames
[39:19] that person brings peace to his
[39:21] ancestors
[39:23] and spares the children that follow i
[39:25] think that's exactly what you were
[39:27] just doing beautiful work and when i
[39:30] work with people i i often tell them
[39:33] this work is not just for you this work
[39:36] is for the generations
[39:38] um there's a couple's therapist who asks
[39:41] people to bring in pictures of their
[39:42] kids
[39:43] and lines up the pictures of the kids
[39:45] and as the couple works on their
[39:47] relationship
[39:48] she says just remember they're watching
[39:52] so our past and our future is combining
[39:55] in this moment of now and in this moment
[39:58] of now
[39:59] what am i going to choose door a or door
[40:03] b and door b is healing for me
[40:06] my children the generations that follow
[40:09] and my ancestors
[40:10] came behind yeah and that's literally
[40:13] like that's so beautiful
[40:15] like also how you uh framed it with the
[40:18] fire and the woods that because it also
[40:21] feels like that whenever we feel that
[40:23] pain
[40:24] what we want to do is get away from it
[40:27] that's also the the nature of all our
[40:29] protection mechanisms is to
[40:31] feel less pain and that's very
[40:33] intelligent
[40:34] in moments where we got really
[40:36] overwhelmed but
[40:38] i think we can support each other and
[40:40] and you know we have some superpowers
[40:43] one superpower is present and
[40:46] presence and the present like really
[40:49] feeling you
[40:50] right now is a superpower and
[40:53] i often say when um let's say
[40:57] a small child comes to you and says
[40:59] territory
[41:01] uh i'm really scared and then let's say
[41:03] you say
[41:05] either you say oh you don't have to be
[41:07] scared there's no there's no danger
[41:10] but what you did is you created you
[41:13] devalued the emotional need of the child
[41:17] you gave the child a rational answer
[41:20] when it came with an emotional
[41:21] request and you created the distance the
[41:24] other
[41:25] is a child comes in and says territory
[41:28] i'm really scared and you say you turn
[41:30] to the child and you say yes i feel
[41:34] you're scared come to me
[41:38] and let's have a look together what's
[41:41] the difference
[41:43] i create i felt my child i feel you
[41:47] feeling me so i feel you i create
[41:50] emotional resonance i feel my child is
[41:53] stressed
[41:54] and scared so i say i create emotional
[41:58] resonance
[41:58] before i give any rational answer i meet
[42:01] the emotional need
[42:04] it creates emotional resonance the child
[42:06] can come
[42:07] with its usb plug to the grown-up person
[42:11] or to your grown-up
[42:12] nervous system plug into your heart
[42:16] into your vehicle nervous system and in
[42:18] that moment
[42:20] co-regulation starts to happen attack
[42:23] and
[42:23] and the child can land down regulated
[42:27] stress
[42:29] and then you say okay let's have a look
[42:33] what's really happening and then
[42:34] rational leadership
[42:37] comes in rational leadership or parental
[42:40] guidance or that's also true for any
[42:42] leadership function in the world
[42:44] needs to come in but not when the
[42:46] nervous system of the other person is
[42:48] like that
[42:48] but when there is co-regulation and
[42:52] a certain sense of regulation in the
[42:54] nervous system then
[42:56] the the rational uh guidance
[42:59] is very very helpful and it needs to
[43:01] come in but not
[43:04] uh by creating an emotional distance
[43:07] and i think that that kind of relational
[43:10] resonance
[43:12] is one of our super powers too so
[43:15] as you said beautifully before if one of
[43:17] us one of the partners has still enough
[43:19] resources available
[43:21] to feel the partner when the partner
[43:24] gets triggered that's amazing
[43:26] because then there is still there is a
[43:28] progress possible because we are not
[43:30] traumatized on the same place so when
[43:32] one gets triggered the other one is
[43:34] in a pretty good shape that's that's
[43:36] great but
[43:37] you also said and i want to highlight
[43:39] that when both
[43:41] carry trauma on the same level and there
[43:44] are not enough resources
[43:46] we responsibility means
[43:49] not that we have to do it alone but then
[43:52] somebody needs to come to you
[43:54] or someone like you and say listen we
[43:57] really need help
[43:59] because if we don't have the resources
[44:01] in the system we
[44:02] can't go further on that level because
[44:05] the resources are like the water in the
[44:07] river
[44:08] if there is still water carrying the
[44:10] weight
[44:11] of an object in the river so the the
[44:14] object will keep flowing in the river
[44:16] but if the object is too heavy or there
[44:19] is not enough water in the river it's
[44:21] gonna get stuck
[44:22] so some couples might get stuck by not
[44:25] bringing in the support that's needed
[44:28] to resolve that tight
[44:31] part because both both don't have enough
[44:33] water
[44:34] available on that level of their
[44:36] development
[44:37] and so i think i want to just highlight
[44:39] what you said before because there's a
[44:41] meaning
[44:42] that reaching out is important if
[44:45] in the system of the relation of the
[44:47] couple it's not possible to resolve a
[44:49] certain pattern and it's
[44:51] it's going to continue like that i think
[44:53] that's exactly right
[44:55] um we're going to break for questions in
[44:57] a minute i just wanted to say that same
[45:00] um healing resonance
[45:03] that you describe so beautifully between
[45:05] an adult and a child
[45:08] we're going to do this in the course
[45:09] we're going to do some live work with
[45:11] with folks but in terms of our own
[45:15] healing you can bring that same
[45:17] resonance to the less mature parts of
[45:19] ourselves to the wounded child
[45:21] and adaptive child parts of ourselves
[45:24] and in our
[45:25] work we often extract those we personify
[45:29] those
[45:29] younger parts of ourselves and you can
[45:33] be
[45:33] empathic and compassionate to those
[45:35] young parts of you
[45:36] one of the things i say thomas is you
[45:38] don't meet
[45:40] harshness with harshness there's nothing
[45:43] that harshness does
[45:44] that loving firmness doesn't do better
[45:48] so if it's an adaptive child that's
[45:50] creating havoc through anger or control
[45:53] yes you need to set limits but firmly
[45:56] and
[45:56] lovingly these are young parts of
[45:59] yourself
[46:00] and you can learn some self-compassion
[46:03] even as you
[46:04] deal with these parts beautiful
[46:07] yeah maybe we receive if
[46:10] richard has some questions that came in
[46:13] so maybe we can spend the last 10
[46:15] minutes
[46:16] looking at questions great
[46:20] hi everybody uh we have a ton of just
[46:23] amazing questions i always feel when i'm
[46:25] on these calls i'm on the time warp
[46:26] with thomas and terry here
[46:30] because it's so engaging uh so let me uh
[46:33] we'll just jump into some of the
[46:35] questions here we'll probably just have
[46:36] time for a queue
[46:37] a few a quick reminder thomas and tara
[46:40] are going to be doing an ongoing course
[46:42] this is going to be over 10 hours of
[46:43] material
[46:44] that's going to start on april 15th and
[46:46] we will send you an email
[46:50] and if you're an alumni from last year's
[46:53] course
[46:54] you'll get a different deal because it
[46:55] includes the course you did last year or
[46:58] that they did last year or you can email
[47:01] us at
[47:03] onlinecoursesupport thomasfubul.com
[47:06] or you can also go to the website
[47:09] healing dot com and you can get the full
[47:11] uh list of the course
[47:13] this year it's really incredible uh
[47:14] can't wait for that okay
[47:16] first question comes from vanessa and i
[47:19] think it's a really good question
[47:21] that has been asked numerous times in
[47:23] the q a
[47:24] will anything change in your
[47:26] relationship if your partner doesn't
[47:28] identify except his own trauma
[47:30] he went through growing up yeah you know
[47:33] um if you don't face your history you
[47:36] tend to repeat it
[47:38] uh there's a saying in a a hurt people
[47:41] hurt people
[47:42] and this is how the transmission keeps
[47:45] going uh
[47:45] forward so if someone denies their
[47:49] trauma
[47:50] the odds are it will get stimulated
[47:53] they they won't have that resonance
[47:56] between themselves and
[47:58] these parts of themselves and they'll
[48:00] the the adaptive child will take over
[48:02] and
[48:03] make trouble for you in your uh in your
[48:06] relationship
[48:07] that's not your problem however
[48:11] it's your partner's problem and uh
[48:14] there's only so much you can do to try
[48:16] and control
[48:17] the situation you stay focused
[48:20] on your practice and uh if your partner
[48:24] does
[48:24] well uh in response to your practice
[48:27] that's a beautiful day for both of you
[48:30] if your partner as thomas was saying
[48:31] earlier if your partner is
[48:34] it goes off the rails and you don't jump
[48:37] into the mud pit with them
[48:39] you you you will get the whoosh you will
[48:42] get
[48:42] adaptive child triggered but you take a
[48:44] breath and get re-centered
[48:46] that's a mixed day for the relationship
[48:48] not a great day for your partner but a
[48:51] splendid day for you i call this
[48:53] relational
[48:54] integrity you work on your own practice
[48:57] on your side of the street
[48:59] and feel the satisfaction of that
[49:02] you may not always get the partner you
[49:04] want but you can get the you
[49:07] that you're searching for
[49:10] right and and beautiful and just uh
[49:14] maybe to add to that and i think if if
[49:16] you do the practice that terry
[49:18] suggested now then there there is
[49:22] like we it looks like often that our
[49:25] partner doesn't
[49:26] xyz but deeper down
[49:30] i often say you know in the first moment
[49:33] of
[49:33] getting into a relation
[49:36] all the information was there but we
[49:39] weren't fully there
[49:41] the relationship or the marriage is the
[49:44] time to find out
[49:46] what we didn't see in the first moment
[49:49] so
[49:49] it means that it reveals itself
[49:52] over you know after we fell in love and
[49:55] after the hormones
[49:56] slowly subside and the real relationship
[50:00] shows up then we see wow there are parts
[50:03] that are
[50:03] less flowing than we thought at the
[50:05] beginning but
[50:07] this is also where my trauma and
[50:11] my wife's trauma are connected
[50:14] so if one partner keeps healing and
[50:17] healing and healing
[50:18] so then first of all as terry you said
[50:21] beautifully then there are more
[50:22] resources
[50:23] and the internal state of that person
[50:26] is is growing and then it will show
[50:30] itself how that relation will either
[50:32] reorganize itself
[50:33] into a new relation and will also create
[50:36] a relational
[50:38] growth impulse for the partner or maybe
[50:41] at a certain level
[50:42] that relation can't continue because the
[50:45] the developmental gaps are simply going
[50:48] to be too strong
[50:50] but important is often my trauma and my
[50:53] partner's trauma
[50:54] have a kind of a lawyer agreement
[50:58] and as long as we don't decipher that
[51:00] agreement that we signed unconsciously
[51:02] on that level
[51:03] there is something that might
[51:06] be stuck and it's through the healing
[51:09] process we are actually finding out what
[51:11] that was
[51:12] and then there is a reorganization of
[51:14] the relationship anyway happening
[51:16] yeah a friend of mine esther perel says
[51:20] i expect to have six marriages in my
[51:22] lifetime and i hope they are all to the
[51:24] same man
[51:25] [Laughter]
[51:28] it's part of the slow huh that you
[51:30] transform
[51:31] and that challenge is the partner in the
[51:33] relationship then the relationship
[51:35] transforms to be big enough to hold your
[51:38] growth
[51:39] and that's what makes it alive and
[51:41] exciting thanks thank you
[51:43] lovely awesome that's great here's
[51:45] another question from
[51:46] nora and she's asking how do i
[51:50] distinguish a disharmonious
[51:51] relationship due to trauma from simply a
[51:54] relationship that doesn't fit or isn't
[51:56] meant to be
[51:57] and there was a few other questions
[51:58] around that same kind of theme
[52:02] terry you want to go again i think i
[52:05] think
[52:05] it's in the i i don't think it matters
[52:09] uh because if you're stuck what that
[52:12] if you're not congruent what that means
[52:14] is
[52:15] that your partner's adaptive child
[52:18] doesn't work very well with yours
[52:19] because
[52:20] that's where the rubber hits the road uh
[52:23] or
[52:24] that one of you is moving beyond the
[52:26] adaptive child to the wise adult and the
[52:28] other one is just playing it out over
[52:30] and over and over again
[52:32] so i i don't think it matters whether
[52:35] it's a kind of
[52:36] constitutional mismatch or a
[52:38] trauma-driven
[52:39] uh mismatch the question is what can you
[52:43] do about it
[52:44] okay if you change your behavior on your
[52:47] end of the seesaw
[52:48] uh does that change things between the
[52:50] two of you
[52:51] if that change is workable you've got a
[52:54] good relationship
[52:55] if no matter how much you change on your
[52:57] side your partner stays stuck
[53:00] then you have to really take a good look
[53:02] at why you're there
[53:03] get them out first and then take a look
[53:07] yeah and then i and i think what you
[53:09] said now is very important we don't have
[53:12] to struggle alone you know there's
[53:14] nowhere written in the universe
[53:16] you need to resolve everything alone or
[53:19] we need to resolve things alone
[53:21] but there is since we are all embedded
[53:24] in a web of life
[53:25] and in a much wider collective
[53:28] intelligence making use of that
[53:30] collective intelligence in moments when
[53:33] we feel under-resourced
[53:34] is very important that's actually able
[53:36] to respond
[53:38] if we're stuck with each other we need
[53:40] to bring
[53:41] a resource in that helps us to keep on
[53:45] moving
[53:45] because what feels so painful often if
[53:48] we feel we are not moving together
[53:50] anywhere
[53:51] the fact that it's uncomfortable there's
[53:53] a discernment in my understanding
[53:55] between moving along
[53:58] and struggling and struggling on the
[54:02] same place
[54:04] and i think if you don't if you're
[54:06] struggling but there's no water in the
[54:08] river to carry us
[54:10] further then it's not about it might be
[54:13] the same discomfort but one couple is is
[54:16] still cruising along somehow
[54:18] while struggling and another couple
[54:20] might be really stuck
[54:22] and there are not enough resources and
[54:24] that's where we have to bring somebody
[54:26] in otherwise we're just burning our life
[54:28] energy and we are burning our health
[54:30] over the long run on the long run
[54:34] and then we we and that's that's where
[54:36] it's the stagnation is
[54:38] needs to help the most so what you said
[54:40] terry
[54:41] bringing support in is very important
[54:44] and the other one is
[54:46] clarity is clarity when it's clear
[54:49] it's clear that it's clear when it's not
[54:52] clear
[54:53] it's clear that it's not clear and
[54:55] that's
[54:56] so whenever i have that question if it's
[54:59] the right relation or not
[55:00] all i know is that i'm not clear about
[55:02] it so i need a reflection
[55:04] in order to gain more clarity
[55:07] so that's very very powerful so then i
[55:10] know i need to look at it otherwise
[55:12] most probably i will take that unclarity
[55:14] anyway to any other relationship
[55:16] as well i have one closing question if
[55:19] you'd like to hear that
[55:20] because we're right on the top of the
[55:21] hour um and
[55:24] uh they're just there's the question is
[55:26] curious to know how each of you feel
[55:28] about the ability to move beyond trauma
[55:30] and triggers can we eventually be in our
[55:31] mature adult bodies alive with feelings
[55:33] and intelligence
[55:35] me living as a fully feeling
[55:37] untraumatized being so what's kind of
[55:39] the vision for where this work can go
[55:41] i think is the question well we
[55:44] i don't know you know therapists and
[55:46] spiritual teachers we may have different
[55:47] points of view on this
[55:49] i think that it's always with us i think
[55:51] our wounded child
[55:53] and our adaptive child will always be
[55:55] there
[55:56] as we heal they will be less intense
[55:59] uh we will be able to form a
[56:03] relationship with them and be intimate
[56:05] with them and parent them
[56:07] which is guiding them limiting them and
[56:10] being nurturing
[56:11] to them but these young parts of us are
[56:14] always for us
[56:15] to manage one of the things i say is
[56:17] maturity
[56:18] is dealing with your own inner children
[56:21] and not forcing them off on your partner
[56:23] to deal with
[56:24] the dealing with them gets easier as the
[56:27] traces of them get lighter as you do
[56:29] your work but i believe they're always
[56:31] there
[56:32] what do you say thomas yeah it depends
[56:36] i i i think it it might be always there
[56:40] and it might also be that we will loosen
[56:43] up step by step
[56:44] throughout our healing process and the
[56:48] the important part i would say also in
[56:51] that question
[56:52] is is that trauma that the
[56:55] notion or let's say a symptom of trauma
[56:58] is that i would love to be somewhere
[57:00] else
[57:02] to think about the ideal version of
[57:05] myself
[57:06] like how i would look like when i'm
[57:08] trauma healed
[57:09] is already part of the symptom because i
[57:12] can't be here
[57:14] and that's why i would say i don't think
[57:16] it matters so much
[57:17] if that place will be healed one day or
[57:21] not
[57:22] more is what helps us to really embody
[57:25] ourselves more
[57:26] and to meet those parts but with a with
[57:29] a
[57:30] higher or more or a deeper awareness
[57:33] and then see if we can every time we
[57:36] transform
[57:37] a layer of trauma into
[57:40] i often say there are three words that
[57:43] describe it it's reflect
[57:44] becoming aware that there's a drama
[57:47] digest
[57:48] digest the past in order to be able to
[57:52] integrate the past into post-traumatic
[57:56] learning
[57:56] and so we will see how much is really
[58:00] possible to be integrated and learn but
[58:03] every step we do strengthens the part
[58:06] that theory talks about is this
[58:08] the grown-up mature more wise part of us
[58:12] so if it will be entirely healed or not
[58:14] i don't think
[58:15] is really the question the question is
[58:17] do i sign up
[58:19] to be that process and i think that's
[58:22] that's the question am i willing to be
[58:24] that process and find out
[58:27] am i going to be intimate with myself
[58:29] someone asked phil caplo when you're
[58:31] enlightened
[58:32] are you still neurotic and he said you
[58:34] know before
[58:36] i did my spiritual work it was my
[58:38] neuroses
[58:39] and now it's like my neuroses
[58:44] that's someone who's done their work