Transcript
[0:01] gobbler welcome to the show Tim it's a
[0:03] great pleasure to be here thank you I
[0:05] have been looking forward to this
[0:06] conversation for a really long time and
[0:08] I wanted to make an attempt at least to
[0:10] do it right so I wanted to have the
[0:11] video and the audio and everything else
[0:13] because I think the work you're doing is
[0:14] very important and we're going to cover
[0:17] a lot of ground which I'm very excited
[0:19] to cover because I think it's a real
[0:21] contribution and you have tools and
[0:23] frameworks can really help people I
[0:25] thought we might start with ebooks and
[0:28] the reason I thought that could be a fun
[0:30] place to start my audience loves books
[0:32] number one but number two in tribal
[0:34] mentors the last book that I wrote or
[0:38] that my guests wrote you were featured
[0:41] and I thought that many of the books you
[0:44] mentioned paint a picture of your life
[0:47] experience and also your life's work in
[0:49] many ways and we can go in any
[0:53] particular order but I thought maybe it
[0:55] would make sense to start with the
[0:57] scourge of the swastika and that was one
[0:59] that you mentioned had had an impact on
[1:01] you or that perhaps you recommended on
[1:05] occasion why is that well so this has to
[1:08] do with my family's history I grew up
[1:10] was born in Budapest Hungary in 1944 in
[1:14] January two months before the Germans
[1:16] occupied the country and hungry at that
[1:19] time was the only country in Eastern
[1:20] Europe where the Jewish population had
[1:22] not been annihilated and now it was our
[1:25] turn so I was two months of age the day
[1:30] after the German army marched into
[1:31] Budapest my mother phoned the
[1:34] pediatrician to say would you please
[1:36] come and see gob oh of course he's
[1:37] crying all the time and the pediatrician
[1:39] said of course I will come but I should
[1:42] tell you all my Jewish days of her
[1:44] crying and of course that's the infant's
[1:48] picking up on her mother's terror and
[1:50] stress and that's how I spent the first
[1:52] year of my life which is had a huge
[1:54] impact on my development and my lifelong
[1:56] struggles with depression and ADHD self
[2:02] Shayne and I know other issues jumping
[2:07] ahead now I knew very little about that
[2:09] history
[2:09] my parents didn't say much about it as I
[2:11] was growing up I knew my grandparents
[2:13] had been killed in Auschwitz
[2:14] I knew my father had been in forced
[2:16] labor and I never saw him for a year and
[2:18] a half but beyond that I knew not much
[2:21] about the details until I was about nine
[2:24] or 10 maybe 11 years old and it was a
[2:26] book on my parents shelf in Budapest
[2:28] with the title the scourge of the
[2:31] swastika wishes were written by a
[2:33] British civil servant and a member of
[2:36] the House of Lords this man had served
[2:40] at the British Army and he was the first
[2:42] book published in the 50s that detailed
[2:45] the Nazi crimes and I climbed up on a
[2:48] chair took down the book when I was I
[2:50] think 10 or 11 began to read it saw
[2:53] photographs of the horrors of the
[2:55] concentration camps and the
[2:56] extermination details in Eastern Europe
[3:01] and all of a sudden I swooned because I
[3:04] got what happened to my family and that
[3:06] question of how can people do such
[3:08] things to other human beings which
[3:12] strike me every day and in almost every
[3:14] day this thought occurred to me for
[3:17] years and years and years almost every
[3:19] day I almost got dizzy with the question
[3:21] so why people suffer and my people make
[3:23] other people suffer and what is the
[3:25] original all that has been a motivating
[3:27] question in my life so that's why that
[3:29] book was so important to me thank you
[3:32] and and I have to say that you know my
[3:35] life's work has been motivated by that
[3:39] question as a medical doctor
[3:41] I'm always looking at what is it that
[3:43] makes people be the way they are why do
[3:46] we come cruel why to become victims why
[3:51] do we become perpetrators what drives us
[3:54] what kind of insanity covers our basic
[4:00] human nature which I believe to be good
[4:02] and and and positive and what happens to
[4:05] us
[4:07] we're gonna spend a lot of time in that
[4:10] territory for sure okay Cement insanity
[4:14] or insanity I'm not sure if that's a
[4:16] good segue to Don Quixote but I'll let
[4:19] you choose the next one so there are a
[4:21] few that came up and you described them
[4:23] in brief in the pages of the book but
[4:27] for instance the background you just
[4:29] gave me it was much more in-depth so we
[4:31] have a few and these are gonna strike
[4:33] folks as eclectic we need the puh the
[4:35] Dhammapada the drama of the gifted child
[4:38] and Don Quixote which one of those would
[4:41] you like to explain next Chloe the bend
[4:44] of the pool let's go with Winnie the
[4:45] Pooh yeah so that was one of the seminal
[4:48] books of my childhood and my parents
[4:49] would have read to me long before I even
[4:51] knew how to read the Hungarian title is
[4:54] mitzi mud school and it was finally
[4:57] Moscow Mitzi Mitsuko Mitzi the bear and
[5:01] the translator is the great hunger and
[5:03] humorist
[5:04] so if anything the Hungarian book is
[5:06] even funnier than the original English
[5:08] which is not something one usually says
[5:10] about translations but what's talking
[5:14] about pool of course was number one that
[5:16] there was this bear of little brains who
[5:19] was some of so much wiser than everybody
[5:21] else so fundamental he found the piece
[5:24] inside despite the fact that his
[5:26] intellect is just under functioning
[5:29] number one number two there was this
[5:32] relationship with the little boy
[5:35] Christopher Robin and there's a passage
[5:40] towards the end of the book where
[5:42] Christopher Robin I don't even know the
[5:44] real story in fact there's a movie
[5:45] there's a movie about it right now but
[5:47] but Christopher Robin
[5:48] his father a EML was a writer and he
[5:53] bought these toys for his son to make
[5:55] stories about them and Christopher Robin
[5:58] actually suffered because he was
[6:00] secondary to his father's career they
[6:03] did not have a good relationship so
[6:05] these characters that the father Mia
[6:07] made up kind of dominated and squeezed
[6:10] out Christopher Robin's own life and
[6:12] himself became a bookseller later in his
[6:15] life and he wrote about his
[6:16] autobiography
[6:17] so there's something about the
[6:20] dysfunctionality and father-son
[6:21] relationship but in the book
[6:25] Christopher is playing with his toys and
[6:27] then he starts to grow up and he has to
[6:30] go to school and he won't be able to
[6:33] play with his toys anymore and at the
[6:35] very end of the book there's a passage
[6:37] where the book ends with but wherever
[6:42] they go in the enchanted forest
[6:44] the little boy as bear will always be
[6:46] playing together and that would just
[6:48] bring tears to my eyes
[6:49] for decades upon decades upon decades
[6:52] until recently I had a an experience
[6:57] actually a psychedelic experience when I
[7:00] realized that there's nothing to mourn
[7:02] because I'm both the bear and the little
[7:04] boy and I was will be playing that
[7:07] nothing is lost but when I read that
[7:09] book there was a sense of loss when I
[7:11] read that passage was always something's
[7:12] being lost childhood innocence is being
[7:15] lost playfulness is being lost which
[7:17] resonated with my own shot because I did
[7:19] lose innocence and and then playfulness
[7:21] very early in life so both for the fun
[7:24] and the humor then of course dizzy or
[7:26] for whom everything always goes badly
[7:28] and it's a part of me that's totally or
[7:30] always expecting the worst and nothing
[7:33] will ever work out for me and never mind
[7:35] leave me alone I'm okay in my own
[7:37] suffering you know that that's sort of
[7:39] determined victim attitude that was also
[7:43] very much too germane to my inner
[7:45] experience so that book just spoke to me
[7:46] and made me laugh and it still does it's
[7:49] one of the funniest books ever written
[7:50] and one of the wisest as well I need to
[7:54] I've only I am ashamed to say this but
[7:57] I've only seen the cartoon oh right I
[7:59] know I know but listen listen one of the
[8:01] sins that Walt Disney is gonna be
[8:03] burning in hell for the rest of
[8:05] existence is what he did with those the
[8:08] stories as he Disney fight them I didn't
[8:11] find them you you you got to read the
[8:13] original do ya and and you you would
[8:15] laugh your head off guard
[8:16] amen amen I wish I spoke Hungarian so I
[8:19] could read the translation which of
[8:22] these would you like to and we can
[8:23] certainly touch on other books but so we
[8:25] have three three remaining on my list
[8:27] the Dhammapada the drama of the gifted
[8:29] child and Don Quixote
[8:31] well let's go to the drama of the gifted
[8:35] child into the drum of the gifted child
[8:38] is by a Swiss German Jewish Swiss
[8:41] psychotherapist named Alice Miller who
[8:44] was for three decades a psychoanalyst
[8:46] but she realized that the Freudian
[8:49] psychical psychoanalytic method wasn't
[8:52] helping anybody get better because it
[8:55] ignored trauma so the drama of the
[8:57] gifted child the German title of which
[9:00] was prisoners of childhood was really
[9:03] all about the fact that stuff happens to
[9:05] us as children negative things happen
[9:08] then we adapted those things by taking
[9:11] on certain defensive ways of being and
[9:13] then we leave the rest of our lives from
[9:15] those defensive modes so we're not
[9:17] actually experiencing the present but
[9:19] constantly reliving the past from a
[9:21] perspective that we acquired when we
[9:24] were helpless and vulnerable children
[9:25] and when she says the gifted shot she
[9:28] means a sensitive child so the more
[9:30] sensitive the child is the more he or
[9:33] she feels the pain and stress of the
[9:35] environment and the more affected they
[9:37] are and the more that shapes their lives
[9:39] and that book came along for me when I
[9:42] was in my 40s and I was a successful
[9:44] doctor and and and and and I was a
[9:47] father but I was depressed I was anxious
[9:50] I was a driven workaholic you wouldn't
[9:52] have known that when you saw me on the
[9:54] job but inside me I was discouraged I
[9:57] had difficulties in my marriage with my
[10:00] children I felt they were afraid of me
[10:03] and they were because of my rages and
[10:06] that book helped me understand it was
[10:09] the first book to help me understand
[10:10] where all that came from so that was for
[10:13] me as for many of the people a seminal
[10:15] read and really my whole work since then
[10:19] has been to help liberate people from
[10:21] that prison the childhood often imposes
[10:24] on so many of us this book has come up
[10:28] repeatedly in my life as a
[10:29] recommendation as a recommended YA book
[10:32] from friends who benefited from it they
[10:35] are very certainly from any outward
[10:38] perspective highly functioning yeah
[10:41] in some cases world-class performers in
[10:43] their fields and I'm in retrospect sad
[10:51] that I ignored those recommendations but
[10:54] it was in part because I didn't like the
[10:57] pairing of gifted child I didn't want to
[10:59] label myself given child we could
[11:02] certainly psychoanalyze that but I was
[11:04] like hmm if this is a book written for
[11:06] people who are in say gifted and
[11:09] talented programs or have some god-given
[11:11] talent for whatever reason I had
[11:13] resistance to that so I didn't read it
[11:14] but the prisoners of childhood makes a
[11:16] lot more sense to me anyway well I think
[11:18] it's a more accurate title but there's
[11:21] two things I would say in response first
[11:23] of all why do you resist your own
[11:25] giftedness you're clearly gifted so why
[11:27] would you not want to find out about
[11:28] that don't know yeah so that's that's
[11:31] something you might want to consider
[11:32] sure number one number two really what
[11:35] she means is the sensitive child yeah so
[11:37] sensitive yeah I that would draw me in
[11:40] because I've had we don't have to
[11:43] necessarily go down this rabbit hole
[11:44] right now but I've had a number of my
[11:46] friends recently asked me when did you
[11:47] know you were so sensitive yeah and not
[11:49] sensitive in a in a hyper reactive way
[11:53] not in a negative way just in a
[11:55] perceptive way and I'd never thought of
[11:57] myself it would never have occurred to
[11:59] me to label myself sensitive and just in
[12:01] the last year I've been thinking about
[12:02] that so this the sensitive child would
[12:06] make make more more sensor be more
[12:10] appealing well yeah you have to think of
[12:12] sensitive in terms of its word origin
[12:14] the word sensitive came so in the Latin
[12:16] word sense here to feel so the sensitive
[12:19] person feels more yeah so the example I
[12:23] often give is and enacting lead to both
[12:25] very positive and very difficult
[12:28] consequences for example if I tapped you
[12:31] on the shoulder right now you wouldn't
[12:33] feel any pain at all but if you're not
[12:36] wearing a shirt and and your skin was
[12:38] exposed
[12:39] furthermore if you're a burn on your
[12:41] shoulder so your nerve endings were
[12:42] close to the surface if I attack you
[12:44] with the same force you'd feel extreme
[12:46] excruciating pain even though the
[12:48] external event was no different right so
[12:51] sensitivity magnifies the pain that we
[12:53] have
[12:54] sensitivity also leads to more
[12:56] creativity so very often the most
[12:58] creative people also have the most pain
[13:00] which is my so many creative people
[13:02] escape from their pain through all kinds
[13:04] of dysfunctions like addictions and so
[13:05] on so there's a real link between
[13:07] creativity and sensitivity and create
[13:09] the video and and sensitivity and
[13:11] suffering at the same time that's the
[13:14] first point that would make no the other
[13:16] thing goes back to what you said about
[13:17] these people that you know of or high
[13:19] performers look at that word performers
[13:22] what does it mean to perform one meaning
[13:25] of it is to put on a show sure that's
[13:27] one meaning and I would have been one of
[13:29] these people who was a high performer in
[13:33] other words look that's from the outside
[13:34] a successful funny doctor director of a
[13:38] palliative care unit at a major hospital
[13:41] national columnist for Canadian
[13:43] newspaper writing medical columns
[13:45] performing at a high level and inside
[13:50] again anxious frustrated depressed
[13:53] discouraged and in my personal life a
[13:56] lot of suffering so a lot of people who
[13:59] perform well are actually deeply
[14:04] troubled inside and of course there's
[14:06] many famous examples of that some of the
[14:08] greatest performers like Presley or
[14:11] melon Munroe and any number of people
[14:13] like a name that's what they were they
[14:15] were performers and even from themselves
[14:18] they hid their own suffering well we are
[14:20] sitting in a venue right now recording
[14:23] this that is is now known as lzr and
[14:27] there is a mural of prints outside
[14:30] because he performed his as I understand
[14:33] at last performance in this venue really
[14:36] before he passed away before he
[14:38] overdosed before he overdosed yeah
[14:40] exactly and we can certainly come back
[14:43] to this but part of the reason I wanted
[14:46] to big piece of the reason I wanted to
[14:49] have you on this show was that I spent
[14:51] I'm in a much better place now for many
[14:54] reasons that maybe outside of this
[14:55] interview but feeling the exact same way
[15:00] you just described yeah
[15:01] outwardly successful inwardly tortured
[15:04] yeah and
[15:08] how do you answer the question if
[15:10] someone meets you and you just have a
[15:12] short interaction what do you do what do
[15:17] I do if someone asks you yeah what do
[15:18] you do
[15:18] I may be self-serving but some people
[15:23] once called me up people whisper people
[15:26] whisper I I do have a gift for seeing
[15:30] inside because I've studied I'm also
[15:33] sensitive and in some ways and I've also
[15:35] studied myself very deeply I've had to
[15:37] because my life just wasn't working and
[15:40] as a medical doctor I've worked with all
[15:43] manner of conditions terminal diseases
[15:46] newborns families physical illnesses
[15:49] mental dysfunctions I spent 12 years
[15:51] working with addictions I spent on
[15:54] exploring my own and other people's ADHD
[15:56] and so I work with people to bring out
[16:03] the truth of their experience so that
[16:06] they're no longer prisoners of their
[16:07] childhood but that they can make a
[16:08] conscious choice about how to live in
[16:10] the present moment not based on how they
[16:12] were programmed and charted and but for
[16:16] that you have to do it in a way that the
[16:18] dog whisperer do in a very compassionate
[16:20] way otherwise people just shut down and
[16:23] and and they they shrivel up and they
[16:25] protect themselves so that's what I do
[16:27] and I know I also write and I speak
[16:30] publicly and so on but the intent is
[16:32] always to bring insight and liberation
[16:34] to people so I'm going to come back to
[16:39] the medicine because I'd love to know
[16:41] when your journey into medicine began
[16:43] but first since I know my listeners will
[16:47] say but you forgot the other two books
[16:49] the other talks the Dhammapada Don
[16:52] Quixote in any order you like
[16:55] well let's go in the order that I
[16:57] discovered them which is Don Quixote
[16:59] which again I read that as a child and
[17:01] then reread many times as an adult and
[17:03] he's my favorite character so Quixote is
[17:05] this deluded Spanish small nobleman who
[17:13] wants to revive the age of chivalry and
[17:15] chivalric knighthood
[17:18] so he guessed his broken-down horse
[17:20] called Rocinante and he is Lance and his
[17:23] sword and his he gets this Squire called
[17:28] Sancho Panza on his donkey and off they
[17:30] go to these adventures and he does not
[17:32] see reality
[17:33] he thinks windmills are Giants and he
[17:35] attacks them and of course he gets hurt
[17:37] and he keeps getting hurt because
[17:40] because he doesn't see reality he but
[17:42] his heart is purely committed to
[17:45] liberating people to truth to justice to
[17:49] to fighting oppressors to liberating the
[17:53] oppressed so here's this guy who really
[17:56] wants to do good in the world
[17:58] and he's just deluded in his vision but
[18:01] he's far truer and deeper and more human
[18:03] than all the people that scoff at him
[18:06] and laugh at him so what a great
[18:09] character and the book is both poignant
[18:11] and very funny and it's he's one of the
[18:15] great creations of world literature and
[18:19] of course again you know that yearning
[18:21] for justice has always burned in my
[18:24] heart
[18:25] owing to what happened to me and what I
[18:26] witnessed in the Dhammapada the demo
[18:31] part is the Buddha's collection of
[18:33] sayings and it begins with basically the
[18:37] idea that we create the world with our
[18:39] minds he says everything is thought in
[18:41] the lead so how we see the world is how
[18:45] it determines the world that we live in
[18:47] so if I see the world as a horrible
[18:49] place according the current president
[18:53] the United States then I will be
[18:55] defensive and aggrandizing and selfish
[18:58] because I want to take before they take
[19:00] from me I want to attack before I get
[19:02] attacked
[19:03] I'll also be too looking out for myself
[19:05] because the world is not to be trusted
[19:06] so if that's the world you live in
[19:09] that's the way you're gonna create and
[19:11] the Buddha was great psychologist
[19:14] immature recognize that our perceptions
[19:16] shaped the world that we live in now
[19:17] what he didn't say and that's where
[19:19] modern psychology comes in is that
[19:22] before with our mind we create the world
[19:23] the world creates our minds mm-hmm so
[19:27] that the kind of world that we live in
[19:29] is very much shaped by early experiences
[19:31] Buddha didn't say that but into
[19:34] certainly enough when you think about
[19:35] his search for truth what happened to
[19:39] him if you read his biography his mother
[19:41] died before he was a week old so he's
[19:44] lost his most important relationship so
[19:46] his life began with suffering and then
[19:49] he spent all his life trying to find a
[19:52] nature of suffering and how to transcend
[19:55] suffering and how to get beyond it and
[19:57] this is how he ended up with this
[20:01] particular method of meditation and
[20:02] contemplation and truth seeking so that
[20:06] book was written twenty twenty five
[20:07] hundred years ago and psychologically we
[20:10] still catch it trying to catch up to the
[20:11] wisdom in it so let's talk about wisdom
[20:17] or perhaps science first yeah and maybe
[20:20] they're related in some fashion although
[20:21] I know we'll dig into
[20:24] certainly some things that might be
[20:25] missing when did medicine enter your
[20:28] life for an interest in medicine
[20:30] interest in being a doctor either of
[20:32] those things
[20:33] well I've speculated on that and there's
[20:37] a number of sources strangely enough or
[20:41] not so strange enough my grandfather who
[20:43] was killed in Auschwitz in his 50s
[20:45] happened to be a writer and a doctor
[20:49] grandson ends up as a writer and a
[20:51] doctor so I think part of it was me
[20:54] trying to fill a hole in my mother's
[20:56] life that was a devastating blow to her
[20:58] this is not conscious but I'm
[21:00] speculating looking back it's not that
[21:02] she ever said you have to become a
[21:04] doctor it's not that she ever said you
[21:05] have to follow in your grandfather's
[21:07] footsteps but I think I consciously I
[21:08] stepped into that role number one number
[21:12] two another reason is that as a Jew in
[21:17] Eastern Europe you had every reason to
[21:19] feel insecure and my mother never failed
[21:22] to tell me that as a doctor you carry
[21:24] your profession in your hands so you
[21:26] don't have to have a business you don't
[21:27] have to have riches you just have to
[21:29] have the knowledge and then you can go
[21:31] anywhere in the world and you'll be okay
[21:34] beyond that healing and and and and and
[21:37] making this world a better place and
[21:39] he'll have people help people lead
[21:43] healthy lives was just an ideal of mine
[21:45] then there was like a testicle reasons
[21:49] that say said doctors get respect they
[21:52] revolve they have a good income people
[21:54] look up to them and they have a sense of
[21:57] authority that I think I lacked in my
[21:59] own life so it was a combination of
[22:01] unconscious reasons and and and and
[22:06] idealistic reasons and legatus typical
[22:08] reasons but but all I know is that all
[22:12] my life I had wanted to be nothing else
[22:14] for the doctor I always grew up knowing
[22:16] I'll be a physician and when you were
[22:19] studying medicine what did you think
[22:23] your specialty or specialties might be
[22:25] well first of all I should say I didn't
[22:27] end up following the dream because uh I
[22:29] in my late teens I just couldn't
[22:33] concentrate and study hard enough to get
[22:34] through the sciences I could get through
[22:36] them but I couldn't get the high marks
[22:37] needed to get to medical school so I
[22:39] actually taught high school for three
[22:40] years I taught English and history for
[22:41] three years and then I would wake up and
[22:44] and this voice in me you could be a
[22:46] doctor you gotta be a doctor and so that
[22:48] I went back to medical school and a lot
[22:50] of hard work already having been an
[22:55] older student in medical school and
[22:57] being interested in history and
[22:58] literature and a larger picture I always
[23:01] wanted to put medicine in the context of
[23:03] history and the context of society in
[23:05] the context of human experience not just
[23:08] as an isolated science but as part of
[23:10] the broader human experience and I was
[23:14] interested right away from the in the
[23:16] beginning between in the connections
[23:19] between emotions and illness between
[23:22] social factors and and health and so on
[23:25] so I was always a larger picture person
[23:28] and so that is that was with me already
[23:31] in medical school so the integration of
[23:34] mind and body as opposed to these
[23:36] Cartesian duality and separation of mind
[23:38] and body
[23:39] exactly not that anything in medical
[23:41] school prepared me for that I mean in
[23:43] medical school users don't get that
[23:45] information at all
[23:46] but that was always my interest and then
[23:48] when I started practicing if your eyes
[23:51] are at all open you just can't you can't
[23:53] help but to see it that who gets sick
[23:56] and who doesn't is an accidental and who
[23:58] gets cancer who gets doesn't isn't
[24:00] accidental and who gets addicted and who
[24:02] doesn't isn't accidental no there was
[24:04] this reasons and those reasons go beyond
[24:06] individual and it has to do with their
[24:08] emotional lives and their relationships
[24:10] and a society in the culture that they
[24:12] live in so more and more over the
[24:14] decades my own personal struggles and my
[24:17] medical experience showed me that these
[24:20] connections are important how did you
[24:22] end up in palliative care and I suppose
[24:28] for those people listen you don't know
[24:29] what palliative care is perhaps you
[24:30] could give just a brief explanation of
[24:33] what that is some people might think of
[24:35] it as hospice care which which I'm not I
[24:38] don't think are necessarily identical
[24:39] but well how did you end up what was the
[24:42] road to palliative care and what is
[24:44] palliative care so I was a family
[24:47] physician and a very driven one and also
[24:51] have a GED which means that you want to
[24:53] move around and have different
[24:54] experiences you know because you get
[24:56] tired of the same thing and really in
[25:02] retrospect I might say that there's some
[25:03] guidance in all this but how it occurred
[25:05] was a series of accidents
[25:07] so I've happened to be walking down the
[25:09] hall of Vancouver's major hospital when
[25:11] the current director of palliative care
[25:13] said I'm quitting how would you like to
[25:15] come and work in palliative care and I
[25:17] said sure you know I didn't think it
[25:19] took me I'm not a moment to think about
[25:21] it he was just looking for someone to
[25:23] grab sure thank you what is that and
[25:28] deeply meaning for a work because when
[25:32] people are facing death they also call
[25:34] come up against the truth of their lives
[25:36] and and and if you can face death
[25:41] you can face life impaler difficulty
[25:44] with the transition with terminal
[25:46] illness these are people with video from
[25:48] nothing curative or healing is going to
[25:52] happen in the sense of physical healing
[25:54] so they need to be helped with their
[25:56] symptoms with their pain or
[25:58] ability or weakness or nausea but also
[26:00] you have to help them go through the
[26:02] psychological process of adjusting to a
[26:06] very short future and the people who get
[26:11] drawn to palliative care work the nurses
[26:14] and the doctors tend to be a special
[26:18] breed it's not because many doctors are
[26:20] not comfortable with death they're not
[26:22] comfortable with not being able to do
[26:25] something to save somebody so you have
[26:27] to develop a lot of patience and a lot
[26:29] of acceptance you have to let go of your
[26:32] power to change things
[26:34] so it's deeply meaningful and deeply
[26:36] transformative work and you also have to
[26:40] work with a lot of people with multiple
[26:42] different attitudes towards life and
[26:44] there's religious non-religious
[26:46] spiritual non-spiritual in denial in
[26:51] acceptance in all the stages in between
[26:53] so it was beautiful beautiful work and I
[26:56] am highlights of my my medical career
[26:58] all the same time I was still doing my
[27:01] family practice in when did when did a
[27:05] focus on addiction or an a an acute
[27:09] interest in addiction start to steer
[27:11] your medical practice so I was a family
[27:15] physician I've always had substantive
[27:17] iyx in my practice it's just a few and
[27:24] again it was an accident I got fired
[27:27] from a palliative care job and my my
[27:32] argument is that I was fired for gross
[27:33] competence just too damn good but also
[27:38] for gross arrogance in other words with
[27:41] my spontaneous and insightful and rather
[27:44] radical non-traditional style I could
[27:48] have great results and often did in
[27:50] palliative care if I may interrupt for
[27:52] one second what would be or might be an
[27:55] example of
[27:56] your approach that others thought was
[27:58] radical or something you would say or
[28:00] something you would do with a patient
[28:01] that's that that got great results but
[28:03] that would seem very radical to others
[28:06] well I would engage them in deep
[28:08] conversations stuff would come up with
[28:10] I'll be painful but would be
[28:11] transformative physically I would just
[28:14] use methods that have not been proven
[28:17] but accorded the right to me and they've
[28:20] seemed to be helpful and helping people
[28:22] out of pain or deal with issues and so
[28:24] on I was very open and and multiple
[28:29] approaches I wasn't just following
[28:31] things by the book so that was my
[28:34] competence the arrogance was that I had
[28:39] a very busy life I was still delivering
[28:41] babies running my family practice so I
[28:43] would get into palliative care and then
[28:45] the nurses said working with me was like
[28:47] working in the eye of a tornado and
[28:50] other physicians who didn't have my
[28:51] attitude or my particular mindset would
[28:55] legitimately question what I was doing
[28:57] but I would regard all such questioning
[29:00] as an attack rather than as an inquiry
[29:02] and I would react like a bulldog who's
[29:04] being threatened and that's the
[29:07] arrogance and that's what ended up
[29:09] letting me be fired and and it was a
[29:11] great firing because as always I learned
[29:13] a lot about myself took me a while but
[29:16] it took and then three weeks after I was
[29:18] fired I got this phone call from from
[29:20] our clinic in Vancouver's Downtown
[29:21] Eastside now the downtown east side of
[29:24] Vancouver is North America's most
[29:26] concentrated area of drug use we have
[29:28] more injection users in this few scrub
[29:30] book radius than anywhere in North
[29:32] America so I get this call saying how
[29:34] would you like to come and work down
[29:35] here and this is three weeks after fired
[29:38] from platter of care had I not been
[29:39] fired I couldn't have taken that other
[29:41] job
[29:41] which then led me to the high point for
[29:43] my career which is working twelve years
[29:45] with addicted population and eventually
[29:47] leaving family practice and doing that
[29:49] full-time so who orchestrated all this I
[29:51] have no idea but it was a beautiful
[29:55] progression something that's come up
[29:58] quite a bit in interviews on this
[30:01] podcast is some variation of sometimes
[30:03] you need life to save you from what you
[30:05] want to give you what you need exactly
[30:07] and
[30:08] I think about that a lot at the very
[30:09] least it's a it's a pain relieving lens
[30:11] through which to view events that unfold
[30:14] how how do you define addiction or maybe
[30:19] a better question is what is addiction
[30:21] and and along with that if you want to
[30:25] tackle it you know what are poor
[30:28] definitions of addiction or
[30:29] misconceptions fair enough so an
[30:33] addiction is a complex psychological
[30:36] physiological process but which
[30:39] manifests in any behavior any behavior
[30:41] that a person enjoys that a person
[30:44] enjoys finds relief in and therefore
[30:47] craves in a short-term but suffers
[30:49] negative consequences in the long term
[30:51] and doesn't give up despite the negative
[30:53] consequences so craving pleasure relief
[30:55] in the short term negative consequences
[30:58] in the long term inability to give it up
[31:00] no notice I has said nothing about
[31:02] substances I said any behavior so it
[31:05] could be related to cocaine crystal meth
[31:07] heroin fentanyl marijuana nicotine
[31:11] alcohol whatever could also be sex
[31:13] gambling internet relationships shopping
[31:17] were eating work extreme sports working
[31:21] out for nog Rafi any number of human
[31:25] activities so I said any behavior now
[31:28] the official definition of addiction
[31:31] according to the American Society for
[31:34] addiction medicine is that this is
[31:36] primarily a blink it's a primary brain
[31:38] disorder
[31:39] it arises in the brain role largely due
[31:42] to genetic reasons this is how they see
[31:44] it and I say that's just not true the
[31:47] other popular idea what addiction is
[31:50] that it's a choice that somebody makes
[31:52] that people choose to be addicted which
[31:54] is what the legal system is based on
[31:56] because if people are not choosing what
[31:59] are we punishing them for and and so I
[32:05] although I think the medical definition
[32:07] is closer to the truth I don't see it as
[32:10] genetic it's a genetic disorder and I
[32:12] don't see it as a primary brain disorder
[32:14] so let me perhaps show you why if that's
[32:16] okay so I give you this definition of
[32:18] addiction again craving relief pleasure
[32:21] shorter
[32:22] negative cost of my long-term inability
[32:24] to give it up would you be willing to
[32:26] tell me if you've ever done an addiction
[32:27] in your life I don't care what - what
[32:29] I'm not asking what oh yeah oh I can I
[32:32] can say yes and I can tell you exactly
[32:33] what it was okay all I in high school so
[32:37] I saw I suffered for from that's what I
[32:41] suppose most people would consider
[32:42] depressive periods beginning at latest
[32:46] age 10 right and never found relief from
[32:52] that until I was competing in wrestling
[32:58] very seriously in high school all
[33:00] throughout high school and an older
[33:02] teammate introduced me to a federal so
[33:06] stimulant a federal hydrochloride which
[33:09] for those people who are curious is well
[33:15] at least at one point ephedrine was
[33:17] found at were at the very least
[33:18] pseudoephedrine in something called
[33:20] primatene mist used for asthma right and
[33:22] I think they also mix it with
[33:23] guaifenesin nonetheless the reason you
[33:25] cannot buy in many places large amounts
[33:29] of primatene mist is because people free
[33:31] based it into methamphetamine yes right
[33:33] so you have a federal which is a very
[33:35] strong stimulant combined with caffeine
[33:37] and aspirin and we have combined those
[33:39] three it's not an incremental increase
[33:42] in effect it's I mean it's probably
[33:45] logarithmic it's a very synergistic
[33:46] effect exponentially herbs exactly and
[33:49] he was recommending it for increased
[33:51] endurance and there there is some effect
[33:56] although it's also very highly
[33:57] thermogenic which wasn't good for me so
[33:59] made me really hot which was already a
[34:00] weakness of mine but it ended up
[34:05] providing me with relief it was a very
[34:08] strong stimulant and I began to not only
[34:10] use it for sports but self-medicate
[34:12] using it okay so great so let me quickly
[34:15] ask you what did it do for you relief
[34:17] from what uh it's it's it made me or at
[34:25] least contributed to euphoria optimism
[34:32] energy so I didn't I didn't
[34:35] didn't feel these symptoms of what I in
[34:38] retrospect I would call depression the
[34:39] lethargy the pessimistic lens through
[34:43] which I viewed things fair enough it
[34:45] seemed to magically just erase all of
[34:46] that in about 30 minutes
[34:48] so you folio literally means a good
[34:50] feeling you gave you energy it gave you
[34:54] make you feel good it made you
[34:56] optimistic also improved sports
[34:58] performance my mom sure did yeah all
[35:01] those good things are bad things to feel
[35:03] optimistic those are all good things
[35:05] okay in other words the addiction wasn't
[35:07] your primary problem your primary
[35:09] problem is that you're depressed right
[35:11] like you lacked a sense of well-being
[35:12] that you lacked energy right so in other
[35:16] words the addiction is not the primary
[35:17] problem it's an attempt to solve a
[35:19] problem right and then the real question
[35:20] is how did the problem arise right in
[35:24] other words this is where my theory is
[35:26] that it's always rooted in childhood
[35:27] trauma and that the addiction is an
[35:29] attempt to deal with the effects of
[35:31] childhood trauma which it does
[35:32] temporarily while it creates even more
[35:34] problems in a long-term right I would
[35:37] have one more side question for you
[35:38] given that statement with your drug of
[35:40] choice this may not be true for you but
[35:43] do you think retrospect you might have
[35:45] ADHD is a kid quite possibly because
[35:48] typically people with ADHD self-medicate
[35:51] with stimulants yeah because hardly
[35:53] treat ADHD now we give people stimulants
[35:55] yeah so so a lot of people that choose
[36:00] stimulants of self-medication like
[36:02] nicotine and caffeine and crystal meth
[36:04] and a third man are actually
[36:05] self-medicating IDIA suits very likely
[36:07] yeah and I was punished by teachers for
[36:11] I wouldn't say not paying attention but
[36:15] being interested in other things in
[36:17] class so I remember very distinctly my
[36:19] kindergarten teacher I'll name her by
[36:21] name because it's shameful mrs. MS Bevin
[36:24] or mrs. Bevan hmm I refuse to learn the
[36:26] alphabet because she wouldn't give me a
[36:28] good reason why I needed to learn the
[36:29] alphabet it was just you need to learn
[36:30] the alphabet so she made me eat soap in
[36:32] front of the class and put me at the bad
[36:33] table she got was that too but I was
[36:36] always interested in doing many many
[36:37] many things and in fact the reason one
[36:40] of the reasons that I started wrestling
[36:41] is because I was very hyperactive and as
[36:45] I believe the story goes
[36:49] other mothers recommend it to my mom
[36:51] that she put me into something called
[36:52] kiddie wrestling to drain my batteries
[36:54] before I got home mm-hmm so that makes
[36:57] perfect sense I've never been drawn to
[36:59] depressants
[37:00] we've never been drawn to opiates in
[37:02] fact after surgeries I get very sick if
[37:05] I'm given vicodin or anything like that
[37:06] so I've opted out and have never
[37:09] personally had any issues with alcohol
[37:11] although a lot of people do it's always
[37:13] been a drought of stimulants yeah and
[37:15] once the we don't have to go down this
[37:17] this this path because I want to I want
[37:20] you to be able to focus on on these
[37:23] these definitions but where I got myself
[37:26] into trouble was having never been
[37:29] physically addicted to any substance
[37:31] before mm-hmm I started using the ECA
[37:33] stack once a day my friend was using it
[37:35] twice a day I started using it twice a
[37:36] day and then I start using it three
[37:38] times a day develop a tolerance very
[37:39] quickly right more and more and if you
[37:42] stopped withdrawal symptoms or
[37:43] absolutely something I had never
[37:45] experienced that so I continued after
[37:47] sports to use this and certainly in the
[37:51] long term there are some some very nasty
[37:54] side effects but I didn't stop me for
[37:57] many many years well so there's a great
[38:01] link between ATD and addictions and not
[38:02] just because they both begin with the
[38:04] same three letters and I can tell you
[38:07] about my own ADHD and this is a way to
[38:09] go back to childhood again so that
[38:11] tuning out that absent-mindedness the
[38:12] desire to scatter your attention all
[38:14] over the place that's not a disease they
[38:17] say it's a inherited disease the hell it
[38:19] is that tuning out divided attention is
[38:23] actually but let me give you a personal
[38:26] question again if I were to become
[38:28] abusive towards you right now verbally
[38:31] or otherwise what would be your options
[38:33] right now I could ignore you but that's
[38:38] not what you would do first is it not
[38:41] likely I mean I would right now I would
[38:45] probably just listen and pause my I shut
[38:48] down off and if I get attacked verbally
[38:49] because I don't want to respond with
[38:51] rage which has historically been my
[38:52] response I hear you but but let's get a
[38:55] bit more basic about it
[38:57] the rational response if I were to
[39:00] become abusive would be for you to just
[39:02] assert yourself saying don't talk to me
[39:04] that way right or will be to leave
[39:07] saying this in two years over mm-hmm and
[39:10] if for some reason you had not the
[39:12] strength to do it either of those
[39:13] there's other people in the room here
[39:15] with us you could ask for help right but
[39:17] what if you couldn't escape fight back
[39:19] or seek help then you would shut down or
[39:21] tune out right now there's the tuning
[39:23] out is simply a defensive response on
[39:25] the part of the brain now put me back
[39:28] into my infancy when my mother's so
[39:30] grief-stricken that I'm crying cause
[39:32] she's in pain and I'll read you a quote
[39:35] here if I may yes please and this has to
[39:39] do with the sensitive child the child is
[39:46] very open and can feel the pain and
[39:48] suffering and going on its immediate
[39:50] environment the child is aware of his
[39:52] own body and can also feel the tension
[39:55] rigidity and pain in the body of the
[39:58] mother of anyone else he's with if the
[40:00] mother suffering the baby suffers too
[40:03] the pain never gets discharged the
[40:06] organism does not develop the confidence
[40:08] that it can regulate itself that things
[40:12] will happen the way they should
[40:13] hence lack of optimism okay you know
[40:18] mama didn't abuse me she did her best to
[40:22] look after me but she was stressed
[40:24] depressed terrorized geef stricken I'm
[40:30] picking that up as a sensitive infant
[40:32] can I fight back change the situation or
[40:36] escape none of those what can I do
[40:39] nothing I can do my brain will tune out
[40:42] as a way of dealing with the stress so
[40:45] I'm not talking about abuse here
[40:46] understand what stress muttering or
[40:48] parenting the child's brain then we'll
[40:50] tune out when is the trust painting to
[40:52] newing out when the brain is developing
[40:54] so the tuning out then becomes
[40:56] programmed in is the default setting and
[40:57] that's why a DD so not an inherited
[41:00] disease it's not a disease at all it
[41:02] begins as a coping mechanism which then
[41:05] gets programmed the brain and there's a
[41:07] lot of these early coping mechanisms
[41:09] function they
[41:10] you in the short-term create problems in
[41:12] the long-term and that's a TD is one of
[41:14] these examples and of course it also
[41:17] most more poem makes you more prone to
[41:19] be addicted because now when you tune
[41:22] out life becomes less interesting you
[41:26] shut down emotional you protect yourself
[41:28] now you feel depressed
[41:30] what does depression actually means you
[41:31] said you were depressed what a
[41:33] depression mean to depress something is
[41:35] to push it down what do people push it
[41:38] on in depression they pushed on their
[41:40] emotions why would they because the
[41:42] emotions are too painful so even
[41:44] depression becomes as a coping mechanism
[41:46] you push it down so you don't feel the
[41:48] pain but then later on that interferes
[41:50] with your life functioning so it all
[41:52] begins as a coping mechanism and later
[41:54] on becomes a source of dysfunction and
[41:56] all this is happening when the brain is
[41:58] actually developing which we can talk
[41:59] about later so these are the links I
[42:04] began to make including after I was
[42:07] diagnosed with it so I and then despite
[42:10] the fact that a couple of my kids were
[42:11] diagnosed I knew that this wasn't the
[42:13] genetic disease that what it is actually
[42:15] is a coping mechanism and had which got
[42:18] programmed to the brain and then when I
[42:21] read the literature on brain development
[42:22] Wow
[42:24] terms of the human brain is shaped by
[42:26] the environment and particularly by the
[42:28] adult child relationships and so it all
[42:32] began to make perfect sense to me so
[42:34] there's a few things I'd love to
[42:37] underscore or reiterate because I think
[42:42] they're very student very helpful and
[42:46] certainly if I had had some of these
[42:48] reframes I think that I would have been
[42:52] able to be proactive with working on a
[42:55] lot of my own issues much much earlier
[42:57] mm-hmm me too by the way yeah for
[43:02] instance so we can come back to this I'm
[43:06] actually just going to mention two
[43:07] things and then we can we can go where
[43:08] that takes us but the first is rather
[43:10] than asking why the addiction asking why
[43:13] the pain so instead of looking at the
[43:15] the consequences looking at the causes
[43:18] there and not confusing the these
[43:22] symptoms with the causes
[43:24] so instead of asking why the addiction
[43:25] asking why the pain and the the other
[43:27] this this might take a moment for me to
[43:29] read but I think it's worth reading and
[43:31] I should say that compassion for
[43:34] addiction this is an organization
[43:35] co-founded by you yourself and Vicki I'm
[43:39] gonna make a guess I've never actually
[43:41] said her last name but do lie or do lie
[43:44] Vicki just for for context for folks who
[43:48] are wondering I was actually the very
[43:50] first person about five years ago to
[43:52] recommend that we meet and then I took a
[43:53] note of it in a notebook I still have
[43:55] and that's part of the reason that I
[43:58] reached out for the book and just
[44:01] because we may revisit this I met Vicki
[44:04] at a gathering at the home of someone
[44:09] named George Sarlo right who has a lot
[44:11] in cares a lot of common background with
[44:15] you and certainly common interests but
[44:17] what we'll come back to that the part
[44:19] that I wanted to read is is the
[44:23] following and I'm gonna make my make an
[44:28] attempt here alright so the mainstream
[44:30] view of addiction you mentioned this
[44:31] compared to the clinical perspectives
[44:32] that addiction is a matter of individual
[44:34] choice moral failure or weakness which
[44:36] is why so many approaches are based on
[44:37] deterrence and Punishment which includes
[44:41] self-help approaches for that matter
[44:43] that that I've attempted myself the
[44:46] clinical view is that addiction is a
[44:47] disease of the brain with disordered
[44:48] brain circuits and behaviors and
[44:50] accurate yet narrow perspective so I
[44:52] think that's that's a really important
[44:53] aligned and accurate yet narrow
[44:56] perspective
[44:57] so perhaps accurate but incomplete right
[45:01] it is accurate that in the addicted
[45:03] brain that the addicted brain is
[45:05] demonstrably a physiologically
[45:07] dysfunctional brain but narrow because
[45:08] it seeks to explain the dysfunction in
[45:10] strictly physiological and biochemical
[45:11] terms without recognize the emotional
[45:13] and social component of how the brain
[45:15] works and this was really driven home
[45:18] for me recently
[45:21] in the last several years I've gotten to
[45:24] know Tony Robbins yes and I attended an
[45:27] event not too long ago with several of
[45:28] my very close friends called date with
[45:30] destiny
[45:31] and at this event he asks the audience
[45:35] of 5,000 people how many people here
[45:38] know someone who takes antidepressants
[45:40] pretty much every hand goes up how many
[45:43] people here know someone who takes
[45:45] antidepressants yet is still depressed
[45:47] and is probably 80% of the people who
[45:50] raise their hands the first time and I
[45:52] personally know quite a few people who
[45:54] take antidepressants which seem to help
[45:58] on some level yeah although the
[46:00] tolerance for some of these
[46:02] pharmaceuticals can also be developed
[46:04] very quickly and yet if if my experience
[46:08] is anything like the experience of or I
[46:11] should say if the experiences of other
[46:12] people is anything like my personal
[46:14] experience with friends let's say you
[46:15] have depression you witness these
[46:18] thought patterns and verbal patterns
[46:23] that can take them from the highest high
[46:26] or just a baseline of optimism and drive
[46:29] them back into depression and so they're
[46:31] just it seems to be just from an
[46:33] empirical or observational standpoint
[46:35] more to the story and so I really
[46:38] appreciate you putting into words what
[46:40] I've grasped to try to understand and
[46:43] also convey so with this definition of
[46:48] addiction how do you work with patients
[46:52] well mm-hmm let's go back to what I said
[46:55] what you quoted me saying not why the
[46:58] addiction but why the pain so if we
[47:01] understand that addiction in every case
[47:03] is rooted in some painful internal
[47:06] experience and that in when you ask
[47:10] people what does the addiction do for
[47:11] you they'll say it numbs me it soothes
[47:14] the pain it makes me feel connected with
[47:16] other people
[47:17] it gives me a sense of control it gives
[47:21] me inner peace or the lack of inner
[47:23] peace the lack of control the lack of
[47:25] connection they all forms of emotional
[47:29] pain if I ask the question not why the
[47:33] addiction but why the pain then that
[47:36] leads to an examination of that person's
[47:39] life rather than looking just at their
[47:41] brain chemistry so I'm quoted from an
[47:44] article
[47:44] appeared in the journal Pediatrics which
[47:48] is the official Journal of the American
[47:49] Academy of Pediatrics it's about as
[47:51] pastiches as you can get 2012 the
[47:55] article comes from the Harvard Center on
[47:57] the developing child again a prestigious
[48:00] child development research institution
[48:02] at Harvard University this article did
[48:07] not present new information so much as
[48:09] it elegantly summarized decades of
[48:11] research and notice what they say they
[48:16] say growing scientific evidence
[48:18] demonstrates that social and physical
[48:20] environments that threaten human
[48:22] development because of scarcity stress
[48:25] or instability can lead to short-term
[48:28] physiologic and psychological
[48:29] adjustments that are necessary for
[48:31] immediate survival and adaptation but
[48:34] which may come at a significant cost to
[48:36] long-term outcomes in learning behavior
[48:39] health and longevity that's what I was
[48:41] saying before that was really
[48:43] adaptations like pushing down your
[48:44] feelings when the pushing of things are
[48:46] too painful we'll help you as an infant
[48:48] it's young young child but then they
[48:49] cause problems later on the tuning out
[48:51] that you do to protect you from the
[48:54] stress in your environment if you're
[48:56] very sensitive it doesn't take a lot of
[48:57] stress helps you and your but in the
[49:01] long term becomes the problem that's
[49:02] exactly what they're saying now I'll
[49:05] jump a few pages ahead to what they say
[49:07] about brain development then this is so
[49:08] crucial and it's so crucial because they
[49:10] still don't teach this to medical
[49:11] schools even though scientifically it's
[49:13] not even vaguely controversial the human
[49:17] brain develops an interaction with the
[49:18] environment it's not genetically
[49:20] programmed early here's what they say
[49:21] the architecture of the brain is
[49:23] constructed to an ongoing process that
[49:25] begins before birth continues into
[49:28] adulthood and establishes either a
[49:30] sturdy or a fragile foundation for all
[49:33] the health learning and behavior that
[49:35] follow not some of the health learning
[49:37] all the health learning no notice what
[49:40] they say first of all the architecture
[49:42] of the brain is constructed through
[49:43] ongoing process that begins before birth
[49:45] which already means what happens in the
[49:47] womb already is an impact on you so if
[49:49] your mother is stressed and she's got
[49:51] high levels of stress hormone that's
[49:52] already affecting your brain development
[49:55] and when you think all the stress
[49:56] pregnant women out there no wonder we've
[49:58] seen so many kids in trouble and we know
[50:01] from American Studies international
[50:03] studies that when mothers are stressed
[50:06] their placenta will naturally have more
[50:08] cortisol and adrenaline the stress
[50:10] hormone those kids will be more likely
[50:12] to have stress issues later on abnormal
[50:14] stress hormone levels even at 1 year of
[50:16] age behavior problems learning problems
[50:18] and so on which tells us a lot as to why
[50:21] adapted kids adopted kids have so many
[50:23] more problems that's another issue but
[50:26] the next paragraph is key the
[50:29] interactions of genes and experiences
[50:31] literally shapes the circuitry of the
[50:33] developing brain and it's critical in
[50:35] critically influenced by in other words
[50:38] the circuitry that chemistry of the
[50:40] brain and which centers and which
[50:42] circuits and which systems develop and
[50:45] which neural chemicals we'll be
[50:46] presenting what quantities depends on
[50:49] the early environment and is quickly
[50:52] influenced by the mutual responsiveness
[50:54] of adult-child relationships
[50:56] particularly in the early childhood
[50:58] years in other words the most important
[51:00] influence shaping the physiological
[51:02] development of the brain is the quality
[51:04] of parent-child relationships now when
[51:06] parents are stressed or distracted or
[51:08] workaholics like I was a young parent if
[51:14] there's instability economic troubles
[51:16] relationship troubles unresolved trauma
[51:19] on the part of the parent loving parents
[51:21] who are just stressed
[51:22] that'll interfere with the child's brain
[51:24] development that's why we're seeing so
[51:26] much weight eh Deena so much more autism
[51:28] and so much of other problems because of
[51:29] stress in society that affects the
[51:32] parenting environment in other words yes
[51:34] there's physiological problems with the
[51:35] brain but it's not a genetic issue it's
[51:38] really at the early experience so when
[51:41] you look at brain scans of adults that
[51:42] are troubled brain scans as you do an
[51:44] addict's you're not just looking at the
[51:46] impact of addiction you're also looking
[51:47] at the impact of childhood trauma and
[51:49] childhood stress and this has been shown
[51:52] over and over and over and over again so
[51:54] there's no separation between the
[51:56] physiology and the psychology so if you
[51:59] come to me as an addict and you say I
[52:01] got such-and-such and I ask you what
[52:03] does it do for you and you say it numbs
[52:04] the pain that my question is where did
[52:06] you develop the pain what happened
[52:08] and then we have an inquiry and not no
[52:10] longer becomes a shameful thing that you
[52:12] chose this note doesn't mean that you're
[52:15] stuck with it because you've got this
[52:16] generating problem we get it as an
[52:18] adaptive response to something that
[52:20] happened and we can heal that the reason
[52:24] why addiction treatment is failing is
[52:29] because physicians don't understand is
[52:30] they keep dealing with the effects which
[52:33] is the addiction and the behaviors which
[52:35] was the effects of the addiction but not
[52:36] the cause which is the childhood
[52:38] distress and
[52:39] the impact to charter distress that
[52:42] carry into adulthood
[52:43] in other words hugs they're prisoners of
[52:46] childhood and so present methods of
[52:49] treatment in psychiatry and addiction
[52:51] medicine in childhood psychiatry deal
[52:54] with effects rather than causes and this
[52:56] is why we're so ineffective at it I've
[53:00] I've many questions yeah so the you know
[53:04] the first is just to to underscore
[53:07] something which is you know the our
[53:09] software in the genetics play a role but
[53:12] but it's it's not a comprehensive
[53:15] explanation for what we're discussing
[53:17] here genes can predispose but they don't
[53:19] predetermine what exactly no there are
[53:21] very few genetic diseases there's one
[53:23] runs in my family muscular dystrophy if
[53:25] you've got the gene you'll have the
[53:26] disease and I pet my mother had it
[53:28] predetermined that just predetermined
[53:31] very various diseases
[53:35] let me tell an interesting study from
[53:37] either Australia in New Zealand they
[53:39] looked at a group of people for
[53:41] aggression they found that the most
[53:43] aggressive people had a certain gene
[53:45] variant do you think they found the gene
[53:48] for aggression no they didn't because
[53:50] the least aggressive people in the group
[53:52] had the same gene so the most aggressive
[53:55] and the least aggressive shared the same
[53:57] gene as compared to the average the gene
[54:00] could not have been for aggression now
[54:02] if you actually looked at the life
[54:04] histories of those people the most
[54:06] aggressive people had been brought up in
[54:09] troubled sometimes abusive but always
[54:12] very stressed homes the least aggressive
[54:15] were brought up in very nurturing homes
[54:17] what was the gene for sensitivity
[54:21] the more sensitive you are the more
[54:24] you're gonna be affected when you
[54:25] brought up in a peaceful home you're
[54:26] gonna be that much more peaceful when
[54:28] you're brought up in a stormy home
[54:31] you're gonna be that much more
[54:32] aggressive so there are these
[54:34] predispositions but they're not for
[54:36] specific illnesses they are for
[54:39] temperament right which means that
[54:40] you're gonna be more or less affected by
[54:42] the environment and so yeah there's some
[54:45] pea disposing genes will be no both from
[54:47] animal studies in monkey studies and
[54:49] human studies that even you find a gene
[54:51] that for similar reasons predisposes
[54:54] somebody to addiction if that animal or
[54:56] if that human being is brought up in a
[54:58] good nurturing circumstances their risk
[55:01] of addiction is no greater than
[55:02] creatures without that gene right so
[55:05] it's just not a genetic disease an
[55:07] effect it runs in families doesn't prove
[55:10] anything because you know as I always
[55:13] point out I'm a medical doctor and if
[55:15] two of my kids become medical doctors or
[55:17] which is no danger whatsoever but if
[55:19] they did that wouldn't prove that the
[55:21] practice of medicine is a genetic
[55:22] disease all right all right it's it's
[55:25] it's not a it's not a catch-all
[55:27] explanation also you have I mean because
[55:30] of a few of the books I've written I
[55:32] hear a lot of stories both successful
[55:35] and unsuccessful about people attempting
[55:38] to lose weight and they'll often say
[55:40] well it runs in my family like my
[55:42] parents are fat my grandparents are fat
[55:43] and they'll say do you have pets I'll
[55:45] say yes I'll say your pets overweight no
[55:47] yeah my pets are fat okay that's clearly
[55:50] clearly not just a genetic issue well
[55:54] may I say something on that yeah but
[55:56] have you heard about the adverse
[55:57] childhood experiences studies the ACA
[55:59] studies the average child adverse child
[56:02] a dress childhood experiences studies
[56:04] you know I haven't but I feel like
[56:06] there's a questionnaire or a series
[56:08] there's a test that you can tell yeah
[56:09] there is so the adverse childhood
[56:11] experiences studies were done in
[56:12] California with I think seventeen
[56:15] fourteen or seventeen thousand adults
[56:17] mostly Caucasians half of them
[56:19] University educated and they looked at
[56:20] the relationship between childhood
[56:22] adversity and adult outcomes and an
[56:25] adverse childhood experience was defined
[56:26] as physical or sexual or emotional abuse
[56:29] a divorce apparent being jailed
[56:33] violence in the family apparent being
[56:35] addicted appending mentally ill apparent
[56:39] dying these were the main ones and for
[56:43] each of these adverse childhood
[56:44] experiences the risk of addiction goes
[56:47] up exponentially the risk of autoimmune
[56:49] disease go up the risk of depression
[56:51] goes up the risk of ADHD goes up the
[56:54] risk of relationship problems STDs
[56:56] everything goes up now you know how
[56:59] these studies started these studies
[57:01] started in obesity clinic the dr.
[57:04] Vincent felitti was a San Diego
[57:07] internist wonderful guy deep thinker and
[57:11] and researcher they noticed that at this
[57:15] clinic with rigorous dietary control and
[57:18] exercise they could help people lose
[57:19] weight but what do you think they
[57:20] couldn't do it couldn't ensure they
[57:24] continue those behaviors when they live
[57:26] exactly they couldn't have them keep it
[57:27] off and then felitti did something
[57:30] that's I have to say is unusual for a
[57:32] medical doctor he listened to his
[57:33] patients and they said don't you get it
[57:35] we're stuffing down our pain this is all
[57:38] based on shelter trauma and so obesity
[57:42] itself is a response to childhood trauma
[57:43] it's just another addiction yeah I could
[57:47] talk about in many ways but and the
[57:50] adverse childhood experiences studies
[57:51] have been repeated numerous times now in
[57:53] other countries always with the same
[57:55] results and so that the obesity epidemic
[58:00] right now is not just an epidemic of
[58:03] junk foods and and and and sedentary
[58:06] lifestyles that is true yeah those are
[58:09] contributing factors but but the
[58:11] underlying basis is people self-soothing
[58:13] their stresses in their lives so it's
[58:16] really an epidemic of stress says let me
[58:18] return to another point or one thing you
[58:22] said in passing which I'd love to dig
[58:26] into a little bit and that was how at
[58:29] the time say the example I think we were
[58:31] discussing well actually before that let
[58:34] me mention one thing so I've had my
[58:36] entire my full genome sequence mm-hmm a
[58:38] predisposition to alcoholism is very
[58:42] prevalent my family from a genetic
[58:44] standpoint just from a software basis
[58:45] however
[58:46] I mentioned earlier I never had issues
[58:49] with alcohols with stimulants so just
[58:52] just as just as a footnote but what I
[58:54] was going to what I'd love to ask you
[58:56] and then I'd really love to hear what
[58:58] you do with patience once you start
[58:59] looking at their pain and the tools you
[59:01] use or the approaches you use but the
[59:05] one of the epiphanies for me in the last
[59:10] very recent year or two hmm has been
[59:15] looking at my coping mechanisms very
[59:19] differently and what I mean by that is
[59:22] for a very long time I had certain
[59:25] behaviors certain defaults that I hated
[59:30] which of course means I'm hating a part
[59:32] of myself that's right
[59:33] and that included anger rage responses
[59:36] yeah use of stimulants you name it a
[59:42] close friend of mine who is a therapist
[59:45] but I've never I've never engaged him as
[59:48] a therapist and there's certainly plenty
[59:51] of bad therapists out there which i
[59:53] think is a separate topic nonetheless he
[59:57] was helping and I'm sure we'll get back
[59:59] to this but in preparation for a very
[1:00:03] controlled supervised psychedelic
[1:00:05] experience he was helping another friend
[1:00:07] of ours mm-hmm prepare this is with MDMA
[1:00:09] this is with ayahuasca food Iowa's
[1:00:11] cocaine and this this person had a
[1:00:14] number of addictions and she hated these
[1:00:18] addictions and she said I hate these I
[1:00:21] realized they're they're terrible
[1:00:22] they've they've ruined my life they're
[1:00:24] ruining my life and it was all a
[1:00:27] negative relationship to these behaviors
[1:00:29] and he said did these ever serve you did
[1:00:33] these ever help what did these do for
[1:00:34] you exactly and she and she described
[1:00:37] how they helped her cope with very
[1:00:41] difficult circumstances early on and he
[1:00:43] said perhaps what you should do as an
[1:00:47] exercise and what we can do is for you
[1:00:48] to effectively thank those behavior have
[1:00:51] suffer the role they played and for the
[1:00:54] necessity they filled and
[1:01:00] to then recognize you thank them for
[1:01:02] their duty effectively but to let them
[1:01:04] go because they're no longer needed and
[1:01:06] that was a huge eye-opener for me and I
[1:01:10] began to this is coinciding with a
[1:01:13] number of things and I want to take us
[1:01:14] off the rails but began to use something
[1:01:18] called loving-kindness meditation or
[1:01:20] Metta my Metta Emmy TT a meditation
[1:01:23] which I was introduced to by a gentleman
[1:01:25] from Google actually a formerly Google
[1:01:26] chade-meng tan and then also jack
[1:01:28] Kornfield who really reiterate it for me
[1:01:30] of course but I never applied it to
[1:01:31] myself I always applied this
[1:01:33] loving-kindness meditation to other
[1:01:34] people and what was recommended is that
[1:01:38] I apply that loving-kindness to these to
[1:01:41] the younger Tim to the other versions of
[1:01:44] Tim who had these behaviors that I had
[1:01:46] grown to hate and resent and to actually
[1:01:48] thank them for the role they played for
[1:01:50] instance that rage that anger was the
[1:01:53] fuel that got me out of Long Island and
[1:01:55] where I grew up there a lot of serious
[1:01:58] drug issues particularly with opiates my
[1:02:00] best friend I had a fentanyl many of my
[1:02:04] friends are addicted to opiates who I
[1:02:05] grew up with many have died and I got
[1:02:09] out because I was angry in part I think
[1:02:10] that was the fuel but that fuel ended up
[1:02:12] over the long term being very corrosive
[1:02:14] but to in a way to reconcile myself with
[1:02:18] that I had to stop resenting it and I
[1:02:24] suppose that's maybe more of a
[1:02:25] confession than a question but your
[1:02:27] comment brought it to mind and maybe as
[1:02:32] a segue I just love to hear and we can
[1:02:37] take it anywhere we want of course but
[1:02:38] once you have shifted the focus from why
[1:02:41] the addiction to why the pain and you
[1:02:43] start to work with someone what
[1:02:47] approaches have you found to help what
[1:02:49] tools well so I very much salute your
[1:02:52] friends approach it's exactly what the
[1:02:54] approach I would take myself and I call
[1:02:59] it compassionate inquiry so inquiry in a
[1:03:03] compassionate way now why did I do this
[1:03:05] but hmm why did I do this right the
[1:03:08] first one is not a question it's a
[1:03:10] statement it's a self condemnation the
[1:03:12] second one is a question
[1:03:13] mmm wonder why did this ah he soothed my
[1:03:16] pain and so what your friend said that
[1:03:19] it served you so thank it love it but
[1:03:23] let go of it is absolutely right I call
[1:03:25] it the stupid friend the stupid founders
[1:03:28] is the one who helped you in a
[1:03:30] particular way at a certain time but it
[1:03:32] can't learn that that way doesn't
[1:03:33] function anymore
[1:03:35] right that instead of helping no it's
[1:03:37] hurting so it's a friend because it's
[1:03:39] really trying to help but it's stupid
[1:03:40] because it's not learning that you no
[1:03:41] longer that three year although that's
[1:03:42] five year although that's fifteen year
[1:03:44] old you know so this not this leads to
[1:03:48] the the question of trauma because it's
[1:03:51] one thing to recognize that all this
[1:03:53] originates in shotted pain it's quite
[1:03:55] another to transform that pain and for
[1:03:59] that we have to understand what trauma
[1:04:01] is so people often think that trauma is
[1:04:04] what happens to you so trauma is a
[1:04:06] divorce when you were small and your
[1:04:09] parents fighting trauma is your mother's
[1:04:11] depression trauma as your father's
[1:04:13] alcoholism trauma is your parents
[1:04:17] argumentation traumas physical or sexual
[1:04:20] abuse or some loss those aren't the
[1:04:22] traumas those are traumatic but the
[1:04:26] trauma is not what happens to you the
[1:04:28] traumas what happens inside you and as a
[1:04:31] result of these traumatic events what
[1:04:33] happens inside you is yet you get
[1:04:36] disconnected from your emotions and you
[1:04:38] disconnected from your body and you have
[1:04:41] difficulty being in the present moment
[1:04:42] and you develop a negative view of your
[1:04:45] world and a negative view of yourself
[1:04:47] and a defensive view of other people and
[1:04:50] these perspectives keep show up in your
[1:04:53] life in the present because they're the
[1:04:55] stupid friends and so the issue is not
[1:04:59] just to recognize what happened at ten
[1:05:01] fifteen thirty however many years ago
[1:05:03] but to actually recognize their
[1:05:06] manifestations in the present moment and
[1:05:08] to transcend them and all you do that by
[1:05:11] reconnecting with yourself by restoring
[1:05:13] the connection with your body primarily
[1:05:14] and material motions that you lost and
[1:05:18] once you do when you found these things
[1:05:21] again then you have what we call
[1:05:23] recovery because what does it mean to
[1:05:25] recover something
[1:05:27] it needs to find it again so what is it
[1:05:30] that people find when they recover they
[1:05:32] find themselves and the loss of self is
[1:05:34] the essence of trauma so the real
[1:05:37] purpose of of addiction treatment mental
[1:05:40] health treatment any kind of healing is
[1:05:43] reconnection for people who are
[1:05:46] listening and want to reconnect with
[1:05:49] themselves with their bodies for
[1:05:51] instance what recommendations might you
[1:05:54] have whether that's things they can do
[1:05:55] or resources they can can look to or
[1:06:00] both or something else what what
[1:06:03] recommendations I'm sure I could
[1:06:04] actually I am a hundred percent sure
[1:06:07] because I've had people come on and for
[1:06:10] the very first time on this podcast talk
[1:06:12] about sexual abuse the interns as
[1:06:14] children and what they did to help
[1:06:17] recover from that many people listening
[1:06:23] I am sure have addictions both traumatic
[1:06:26] past experiences and trauma
[1:06:29] what what recommendations could you bake
[1:06:32] for them sure so I want to say first of
[1:06:35] all that for trauma you don't need
[1:06:37] therapy traumatic events so there's two
[1:06:41] ways to look at them one is that bad
[1:06:42] things happen I shouldn't have we've
[1:06:44] talked about those but the other way to
[1:06:46] get traumatized is when good things
[1:06:47] happen that should have happened so if
[1:06:50] the good good things didn't happen that
[1:06:52] should have happened sorry so when you
[1:06:54] look look at the Shroud of omission
[1:06:56] trauma connection with the parents not
[1:06:58] that they didn't love you not that they
[1:06:59] didn't do their best but they were too
[1:07:00] stressed traumatize distracted
[1:07:02] themselves then you didn't get the kind
[1:07:04] of attention and the kind of acceptance
[1:07:06] and the kind of attuned being with that
[1:07:09] you needed that itself can make you
[1:07:10] disconnect from yourself the child needs
[1:07:13] that acceptance that connection that
[1:07:14] attunement our brain development
[1:07:16] requires that our emotional development
[1:07:18] demands it and when we don't get it not
[1:07:21] because the parents don't love us but
[1:07:22] some people because of their own issues
[1:07:24] we can also suffer that disconnection so
[1:07:27] that's what I call developmental trauma
[1:07:30] and now how do we connect well there are
[1:07:35] many many forms of therapy
[1:07:37] it's very difficult for anybody to do
[1:07:40] this on their own some people do it I
[1:07:42] certainly couldn't do it on my own I've
[1:07:43] needed a lot of help in terms of therapy
[1:07:46] that helps me understand what happened
[1:07:49] to me and so that there's there's a
[1:07:52] reason for it so that not as if there's
[1:07:55] a reason for it then it's no longer me
[1:07:57] I'm not somebody to be ashamed of I'm
[1:08:00] just somebody developed on certain lines
[1:08:02] for some very good reasons but it's not
[1:08:05] in my deepest character and it's not who
[1:08:08] I am and I don't have to be that way
[1:08:09] that's a relief to know it's also not
[1:08:13] that I'm generically programs I'm doomed
[1:08:14] to stay that way you know number one
[1:08:17] number two you have to reconnect with
[1:08:19] the body there are various body
[1:08:21] therapies my friend Peter Levine and his
[1:08:24] somatic experiencing walking Tigers
[1:08:26] waking the time waking with her waking
[1:08:28] the tiger was his first book and he's
[1:08:30] written many wonderful books since then
[1:08:33] so somatic somatic experiencing his
[1:08:37] method is called which he develops it's
[1:08:38] brilliant there is EMDR eye movement
[1:08:43] desensitization reprogramming which is a
[1:08:47] way of bypassing the conscious mind and
[1:08:50] getting to the emotional brain and
[1:08:54] quicker than talk therapy by itself can
[1:08:57] do so it's combined with talk therapy
[1:08:58] but it takes you past just a conscious
[1:09:01] defensive egoic mind there is the
[1:09:06] emotional freedom tapping that people do
[1:09:08] there's race variations on that there is
[1:09:14] there's motor sensory integration
[1:09:17] techniques there is then there is the
[1:09:21] traditional therapies like yoga now yoga
[1:09:24] was not simply a physical modality when
[1:09:27] it first developed yoga actually means
[1:09:28] unity so the very essence of yoga is to
[1:09:31] regain that unity not just with
[1:09:33] ourselves but also with the larger
[1:09:35] creation and so yoga when it's practiced
[1:09:38] in its intended way not just the hot
[1:09:40] yoga where you get a good workout that's
[1:09:42] great and not against it but I'm talking
[1:09:44] about intentional yoga with a meditative
[1:09:46] aspect to it which is taught by a number
[1:09:49] of disciplines
[1:09:50] bodywork of all kinds can hit pause for
[1:09:53] one second do you practice yoga and if
[1:09:55] so what type do you practice so I have
[1:09:58] always said with my ADHD I'm not a yoga
[1:10:00] person I can't do it until you now half
[1:10:02] ago I met actually a yogi
[1:10:03] his name is Sadhguru and he's Indian
[1:10:07] yogi with a big following I was very
[1:10:09] skeptical but I met the guy I know I
[1:10:12] have a 50 minutes daily yoga practice
[1:10:14] which I did this morning before coming
[1:10:16] to the end to you and this made an
[1:10:17] enormous difference in my life with my
[1:10:19] ADHD mind I really have trouble just
[1:10:20] sitting there when I sit on the
[1:10:22] meditation cushion my mind is like all
[1:10:24] over the place but with the yoga which
[1:10:26] is more body based I can stay much more
[1:10:29] present there is a meditation of
[1:10:32] component to it and so the answer is yes
[1:10:36] if you had asked me 18 months ago I
[1:10:39] would have said no I support it but I
[1:10:41] don't do it but now I'm actually a very
[1:10:44] committed practitioner and and its
[1:10:47] really has made a difference is there
[1:10:48] particular is it a particular type of
[1:10:51] yoga that people could Google or learn
[1:10:55] more about well so I'm not a yoga expert
[1:10:57] and there's many forms of yoga that
[1:10:59] other people more knowledgeable than I
[1:11:01] am could recommend but the one I learned
[1:11:03] is called inner engineering and it's
[1:11:05] taught by either said gurus followers
[1:11:09] and you can look up inner engineering
[1:11:10] online imagine when I recommended to
[1:11:12] France and others everybody has been
[1:11:14] only being grateful so I can highly
[1:11:15] recommend it typically there's to me
[1:11:18] what seems to be a cult around the guy
[1:11:19] which I don't take too particularly but
[1:11:22] he's the genuine article in terms of
[1:11:24] having a deep experience and being able
[1:11:26] to try and submit that experience to
[1:11:28] others and creating a practical system
[1:11:31] around it so it's worked for me I'm not
[1:11:34] here to recruit anybody else but since
[1:11:36] you're asking no no that's just my fans
[1:11:38] appreciate yeah well you know I'm not
[1:11:40] gonna blame it on my fans I like
[1:11:41] specifics much yeah so inner engineering
[1:11:43] you can look up online and it's taught
[1:11:45] here in the States and in Canada
[1:11:47] internationally actually and I but I did
[1:11:49] interrupt you you're about to mention I
[1:11:51] think another technique or modality that
[1:11:54] can help talked about for instance the
[1:11:58] somatic experience EMDR emotional
[1:12:00] freedom technique motor sensory
[1:12:01] integration technique
[1:12:02] techniques yoga and then there's
[1:12:05] something coming up after that well
[1:12:07] about ten years ago I began to work with
[1:12:09] psychedelics now if you're 15 years ago
[1:12:13] you were to ask me will ever be working
[1:12:15] with psychedelics as a healing modality
[1:12:17] I would have said you're out of your
[1:12:18] mind
[1:12:19] but then through a series of events
[1:12:21] might became aware of the potential role
[1:12:24] of psychedelics in healing and I've been
[1:12:28] doing work with them for ten years and
[1:12:30] there are another potent method and
[1:12:33] they're not for everybody and I have to
[1:12:36] emphasize that whatever modality you
[1:12:38] choose of a psychedelic nature you have
[1:12:41] to do it with adept practitioners with
[1:12:44] deep integrity and deep knowledge and
[1:12:46] experience but in such hands and in such
[1:12:48] a context it's can be like a
[1:12:51] superhighway to the self awareness not
[1:12:55] in isolation but it opens doors that
[1:12:59] otherwise might take years and so it's
[1:13:01] not unusual for me to conduct the
[1:13:04] psychedelic session at somebody or
[1:13:06] series of sessions either in a group or
[1:13:08] individual setting and have them say
[1:13:10] that was like ten years of psychotherapy
[1:13:12] in one day and I've had the same
[1:13:15] experience myself so again it's not to
[1:13:18] be isolated from other kinds of work and
[1:13:20] it has to be integrated but it's not a
[1:13:22] potent way of working and of course as I
[1:13:25] know you're personally aware there's an
[1:13:27] increasing movement amongst
[1:13:28] psychologists therapists psychiatrists
[1:13:31] medical doctors other healers to find
[1:13:35] ways of incorporating incorporating
[1:13:37] psychedelic healing in the larger
[1:13:39] therapeutic scheme you mentioned as it
[1:13:42] related to EMDR and some of these other
[1:13:44] techniques that you that you listed that
[1:13:47] it is a potent way of bypassing the
[1:13:49] egoic mind yeah and certainly
[1:13:51] psychedelics literally mind manifesting
[1:13:56] that's right in that case our one very
[1:14:00] potent tool that or they are tools that
[1:14:05] have been used for millennia in
[1:14:07] traditional or ceremonial contexts
[1:14:09] around the world for many purposes but
[1:14:12] including bypassing the analytical
[1:14:16] rational prefrontal cortex in many
[1:14:19] capacities
[1:14:20] now you mentioned a series of events and
[1:14:22] I will come back to the psychedelics and
[1:14:24] ask you which you have chosen and why
[1:14:26] should work with but if if you can
[1:14:30] mention any of them what were the series
[1:14:33] of events that led you sure to miss to
[1:14:36] psychedelics and 2008 my book on
[1:14:40] addiction in the realm of hungry ghosts
[1:14:42] Close Encounters with addiction was
[1:14:44] published in Canada and very quickly
[1:14:46] became a number-one national bestseller
[1:14:48] subsequently published in the States as
[1:14:50] well and I was in a book tour and people
[1:14:55] could ask me what do you know about
[1:14:56] addictions and I was cause the treatment
[1:14:58] ayahuasca being a Peruvian or Amazonian
[1:15:02] vine that's made into a brew that has
[1:15:05] psychedelic properties I knew nothing
[1:15:08] the next speech the next event somebody
[1:15:11] else would ask what do you know bruh I
[1:15:13] was going to another addiction I think
[1:15:14] started getting annoyed with it like
[1:15:16] leave me alone I've just written a book
[1:15:17] I've spent years researching it my life
[1:15:20] experience and all kinds of scientific
[1:15:23] exploration went into it asked me about
[1:15:26] something I know about and then I
[1:15:29] realized that maybe the universe was
[1:15:31] knocking on my door and somebody said
[1:15:34] did you know you could experience it
[1:15:35] here in Vancouver there was a Peruvian
[1:15:38] shaman leading some ceremonies up in
[1:15:40] Vancouver so who might have say no when
[1:15:44] I jumped right in and I sat in this tent
[1:15:46] with 50 other people 50 yeah I was
[1:15:49] that's thought I set it up it's not it's
[1:15:51] not what I recommend but that's how they
[1:15:53] set it up
[1:15:53] they played beautiful music and there
[1:15:58] was a little baby in the room mother and
[1:16:02] dad were there for the experience the
[1:16:05] baby was in the room and the baby was
[1:16:06] cooing away and tears started flowing
[1:16:10] down my face and these were not tears of
[1:16:13] sorrow they were tears of joy and I got
[1:16:16] in touch with such profound love that I
[1:16:17] had never consciously experienced before
[1:16:19] and if there were tears of love and it
[1:16:23] wasn't love for anybody in particular it
[1:16:26] was just
[1:16:27] and then I saw in all the ways that I
[1:16:31] had closed my heart against love in my
[1:16:34] life and how I betrayed love in my
[1:16:37] personal relationship with my spouse and
[1:16:39] and and and my children and in other
[1:16:42] ways so I just got this experience of
[1:16:47] love is something profound and and and
[1:16:51] universal and and life-defining but
[1:16:55] something from I've been cut off in so
[1:16:57] many ways and I got it because I closed
[1:17:06] my heart against love
[1:17:07] precisely because when I was wrong about
[1:17:09] small I've been so hurt I went to my
[1:17:12] mother states of mind she couldn't
[1:17:15] respond to me where I needed to be
[1:17:16] responded to not her fault but she
[1:17:18] couldn't and then when I was a year old
[1:17:20] she gave me to a stranger to save my
[1:17:22] life and I didn't see her for a month
[1:17:24] which is a huge explain that for a
[1:17:26] second
[1:17:27] so again it's Budapest Hungary Seconal
[1:17:29] or January the Russians are circled
[1:17:34] Budapest and are not fighting the
[1:17:36] Germans the government in power is a
[1:17:39] right-wing fascist anti-semitic military
[1:17:42] force and even though the deportations
[1:17:45] of Jews had stopped the Germans had an
[1:17:48] elated half a million Hungarian Jews in
[1:17:49] three or four months but now the
[1:17:51] Hungarian fascists for killing Jews in
[1:17:53] Budapest and including in the house
[1:17:56] where my mother I were living so my
[1:17:57] mother gave me to a stranger in the
[1:17:58] street a Christian woman because she
[1:18:00] didn't know she'd be dead or alive next
[1:18:02] day well or that I would be and I was
[1:18:05] quite sick so I didn't see her from us
[1:18:07] which I experiences a deep abandoned
[1:18:09] house could I experience it so my heart
[1:18:11] closes against love and I got all this
[1:18:17] and so I got that if this plant this
[1:18:21] plant that as you say manifests the mind
[1:18:23] can show me both the ways in which have
[1:18:27] closed the off from myself and that I
[1:18:30] don't need to because the love is still
[1:18:32] there what healing potential it has now
[1:18:36] I wish I could say that after that
[1:18:37] experience I became a loving house
[1:18:39] and I loving human being I didn't it's
[1:18:42] not that simple as my wife could tell
[1:18:46] you nevertheless it opened the door for
[1:18:49] me and I got right away now however the
[1:18:53] thought that I had was that I had no
[1:18:56] induction I had had no introduction I
[1:18:58] had no processing afterwards ayahuasca
[1:19:02] is a medicinal plant that has been used
[1:19:05] in the Amazon basin for hundreds of
[1:19:07] years maybe longer in its a cultural
[1:19:09] context in a tribe in a village where
[1:19:14] people know each other would they know
[1:19:15] the shaman where they shared the same
[1:19:17] assumptions in the same history that's
[1:19:20] not the same as a bunch of Westerner
[1:19:21] strangers to each other come together
[1:19:22] for one night drinking the stuff and
[1:19:24] then going their separate ways
[1:19:25] agreed so immediately the question that
[1:19:29] came up for me was how can we create a
[1:19:32] setting that at least resembles as best
[1:19:34] we can fashion the original setting so
[1:19:40] we came up with the idea where we treat
[1:19:42] where a small number of people get
[1:19:44] together with properly trained shamans
[1:19:47] who have integrity and experience deep
[1:19:50] experience and with me facilitating
[1:19:54] people's preparation and their post
[1:19:57] ceremony integration and so I've been
[1:19:59] doing that now for 10 years and a lot of
[1:20:03] learning involved we made mistakes but
[1:20:06] it evolved and the essence of it is that
[1:20:09] people don't come into it cold they come
[1:20:11] into the preparation in a safe setting
[1:20:13] where pretty soon group becomes a family
[1:20:17] to each other which means that no do
[1:20:19] they love each other and support each
[1:20:20] other but they also trigger each other
[1:20:23] and I mean basically I tell people I
[1:20:25] guess what you're back and you found
[1:20:27] your virgin and everything you hated
[1:20:29] about your film urgent is going to show
[1:20:30] up here but in the context where it's
[1:20:32] safe for that to happen right and so
[1:20:35] I've seen a lot of great healing I've
[1:20:37] had people with multiple suicide
[1:20:39] attempts heal from depression I've seen
[1:20:42] people get much better with the
[1:20:43] autoimmune diseases I've seen people
[1:20:46] deal with all kinds of addictions and
[1:20:48] life issues relationship problems come
[1:20:51] out of it much more themselves much more
[1:20:53] able to
[1:20:53] deal with these issues so long as the
[1:20:56] proper integration is done afterwards so
[1:20:58] that was my personal experience now that
[1:20:59] Dan introduced me to the whole world of
[1:21:03] psychedelics and I realized that there's
[1:21:06] a lot of research being done these days
[1:21:08] that his organization Maps
[1:21:12] multidisciplinary association
[1:21:13] association for psychedelic studies
[1:21:16] which is a group of psychologists
[1:21:19] psychiatrists medical doctors therapists
[1:21:22] counselors interested people to study
[1:21:25] scientifically the role of psychedelics
[1:21:29] in healing and as you're probably aware
[1:21:31] interesting studies have been done
[1:21:32] around psilocybin mushrooms and
[1:21:34] end-of-life anxiety studies have been
[1:21:37] done which are revolutionary in using
[1:21:40] mdma-assisted psychotherapy and they may
[1:21:42] being the medical name for a technical
[1:21:45] name for ecstasy again in the right
[1:21:48] setting with the right leadership these
[1:21:50] have proven to be very powerful
[1:21:51] modalities of healing and so there's a
[1:21:54] whole new resurgence of psychedelic
[1:21:56] research in a number of different areas
[1:21:58] some of the manmade some of the
[1:22:00] plant-based but there's a whole world
[1:22:03] that I was introduced to and I've
[1:22:06] learned a lot in the last ten years and
[1:22:07] again I both practice it in my own
[1:22:12] healing work and I'm interested in it
[1:22:15] also as a participant so I'd love to add
[1:22:21] a few things to your second comment and
[1:22:23] then ask a bunch of questions about the
[1:22:24] first yeah so for people who are
[1:22:27] interested in learning more about the
[1:22:31] current scientific studies and
[1:22:35] mechanisms of action related to some of
[1:22:37] these compounds and what is being done
[1:22:38] there are a number of very interesting
[1:22:44] and very competent organizations as far
[1:22:47] as I can tell
[1:22:48] Maps is one that you measure and I'll
[1:22:50] actually be seeing the founder Rick
[1:22:52] Doblin
[1:22:52] in just a few days time there is the
[1:22:56] Hefner Institute which I've worked with
[1:22:59] primarily run by MDS and PhDs or at
[1:23:02] least the board and so on is comprised
[1:23:03] of of scientists and medical doctors
[1:23:06] it was through the Hefner foundation and
[1:23:09] also directly with Johns Hopkins so I've
[1:23:10] had some involvement with the South
[1:23:12] seventh with psilocybin studies and
[1:23:13] actually thank you to many of you served
[1:23:17] with smacking the mic too many of you in
[1:23:19] my audience who helped through a crowd
[1:23:21] running funding campaign to raise funds
[1:23:23] for a study at Johns Hopkins related to
[1:23:25] treatment treatment resistant depression
[1:23:27] yes it's all seven so Haftar institute
[1:23:30] excellent organization organization to
[1:23:33] look into and then you Sona also which I
[1:23:36] believe is primarily focused on
[1:23:38] psilocybin whereas maps at this point
[1:23:39] has done great work on many levels
[1:23:41] including helping to facilitate MDMA
[1:23:46] being designated a breakthrough therapy
[1:23:49] and effectively getting fast tracked
[1:23:50] into Phase three trials by the FDA
[1:23:52] that's right yeah and these are all
[1:23:55] organizations that I would encourage
[1:23:57] people to look into and it's really an
[1:24:03] exciting time and also a fragile time as
[1:24:06] it relates to these compounds which have
[1:24:09] certainly demonstrated historically
[1:24:11] accepting MDMA let's just look at the
[1:24:14] studies many of which were done starting
[1:24:17] and say 50s and 60s looking at the
[1:24:21] clinical efficacy of using these
[1:24:23] compounds for everything ranging from
[1:24:25] alcoholism to nicotine addiction to many
[1:24:28] of the things that you mentioned well in
[1:24:30] order what is little known but that Bill
[1:24:32] Wilson dr. bill who funded one of the
[1:24:34] funders of AAA right actually had some
[1:24:37] powerful LSD experiences
[1:24:40] and which helped him is in his spiritual
[1:24:42] growth listen hey they don't talk about
[1:24:46] that very much but it's a fact if I'm a
[1:24:49] parent that usually say as much as I
[1:24:51] support the 12 steps what a also doesn't
[1:24:55] tend to talk about is the trauma that
[1:24:56] first causes the addiction and Bill
[1:24:58] Wilson himself was a traumatized child
[1:24:59] he was abandoned by his parents I mean
[1:25:01] he was very young and so it's
[1:25:04] interesting that AAA for all the good
[1:25:06] work that it does do which I support I
[1:25:09] don't support people being forced into
[1:25:10] any particular form of treatment but as
[1:25:12] a self chosen form of treatment it can
[1:25:14] be very helpful to many people but they
[1:25:17] don't talk about two very interesting
[1:25:18] things which is one is the psychedelic
[1:25:20] part and the other is the Toronto part
[1:25:22] yeah no it's for me just looking at my
[1:25:28] own childhood experiences and exploring
[1:25:35] recovery defined as you defined it yeah
[1:25:38] in in the last several years especially
[1:25:39] in the last six months it's been
[1:25:42] fascinating and frustrating to discover
[1:25:46] and try to piece together these various
[1:25:47] elements but the what is the frustrating
[1:25:55] part that there is well there may it may
[1:26:01] exist but I couldn't find one-stop
[1:26:03] shopping that checked all the boxes
[1:26:04] right ain't any right so so it's it's
[1:26:07] been an exercise in collecting various
[1:26:11] tools and piecing them together like you
[1:26:13] said you a a does incredible work and
[1:26:15] they they what they have done in terms
[1:26:18] of a distributed free service with
[1:26:20] social accountability in support is
[1:26:21] incredible so they the psychedelic
[1:26:25] component which bill actually wanted to
[1:26:28] as I understand it make one of the steps
[1:26:30] in a needless to say was hard to get
[1:26:33] widespread leadership support for that
[1:26:34] and then you have the trauma piece so
[1:26:37] these are all tools in the toolkit that
[1:26:40] people can use for their own sort of
[1:26:42] bespoke approach in some respects coming
[1:26:45] back to the ayahuasca specifically and I
[1:26:48] should just as a caveat point out
[1:26:50] because I do think that these tools
[1:26:52] I know these tools are very powerful I
[1:26:54] have first-hand familiarity from past
[1:26:57] experiences and have have been very
[1:27:00] engaged with this scientific community
[1:27:02] for some time now they can be misused
[1:27:05] there are many charlatans and
[1:27:08] unfortunately there's more you know
[1:27:09] there's many there's some very powerful
[1:27:12] healers shamans who unfortunately
[1:27:14] exploit people sexually and financially
[1:27:16] very common yeah and this is of course
[1:27:19] not just restricted to the Iowa school
[1:27:21] world it's also happens in a spiritual
[1:27:23] world from the spiritual leaders with
[1:27:25] tremendous power tremendous healing
[1:27:27] influence have at the same time
[1:27:28] Exploited men and women
[1:27:31] and created all kinds of further trauma
[1:27:35] so unfortunately when you have that much
[1:27:38] power and you haven't totally done your
[1:27:40] integration work you can start misusing
[1:27:43] that power and that happens in all the
[1:27:45] healing modalities as we know but it
[1:27:47] certainly happens in a psychedelic world
[1:27:49] as well
[1:27:49] yeah it's very it's I wish I could say
[1:27:53] it's rare it's not but it's something to
[1:27:57] safeguard against especially when you're
[1:27:58] in that vulnerable state so I would
[1:28:00] actually recommend that people see a
[1:28:01] documentary called Kumari which is very
[1:28:04] much worth watching and the brief
[1:28:07] overview is it's an Indian filmmaker
[1:28:11] who begins studying various gurus and
[1:28:15] healers in the u.s. I in in hopes of I
[1:28:21] believe the original impetus was to
[1:28:24] simply do a documentary on charlatans
[1:28:26] and then he went to India and he said
[1:28:28] they're just as bad here and he said are
[1:28:31] just as bad or worse and he decides to
[1:28:34] make himself a guru as a as an
[1:28:37] experiment and it's it's a very
[1:28:39] thought-provoking documentary that I
[1:28:41] think will actually becomes the kind of
[1:28:43] fake or right it's right yeah I remember
[1:28:45] it yeah and he unveils it yeah I don't
[1:28:47] want to give too much away but it's very
[1:28:48] well done very worth watching because it
[1:28:50] helps to prepare you I think
[1:28:51] psychologically to not lose yourself in
[1:28:57] a dangerous way and here's the problem
[1:28:59] you see what I said about the essence of
[1:29:01] trauma is that you you lose connection
[1:29:03] to yourself and that means you lose
[1:29:06] connection to your gut feelings right
[1:29:08] you know as long as your gut feelings
[1:29:10] are with you and your honor them they'll
[1:29:11] protect you but the very sense of trauma
[1:29:13] is the loss of that yeah which means
[1:29:15] that when you lose connection to God
[1:29:17] feelings then you're very vulnerable to
[1:29:20] being exploited and when you talk to
[1:29:23] people who were exploited in any context
[1:29:25] psychedelic or not if you ask them do
[1:29:28] you have any kind of vague sense that
[1:29:30] this is not quite right they'll say yeah
[1:29:32] but I didn't listen to it yep and the
[1:29:35] fact that they didn't listen to it is
[1:29:37] already a marker of trauma so since it's
[1:29:40] traumatized people which is most of us
[1:29:42] who seek healing
[1:29:44] it's also vulnerable people who seek
[1:29:46] healing and this is what some of these
[1:29:48] people can exploit so the very portal
[1:29:53] into healing which is opening up the
[1:29:55] vulnerability that we've shut down
[1:29:58] against is also the portal for potential
[1:30:01] loss so people have to do their due
[1:30:02] diligence yeah and I'm not trying to
[1:30:04] create paranoia here but people just
[1:30:07] should be careful you just mentioned
[1:30:09] something that I'd really love to just
[1:30:11] pause and emphasize you mentioned a few
[1:30:15] things so number one is that your your
[1:30:19] gut feeling
[1:30:20] / it's like physiological intuition can
[1:30:25] help you mm-hmm and that's something
[1:30:28] that for many reasons I completely muted
[1:30:32] or ignored for a very long time so it's
[1:30:34] been a process of getting reacquainted
[1:30:35] with that and I would say two things
[1:30:37] that that I found helpful and if you
[1:30:41] have any comments on second in
[1:30:43] particular I'd love love to hear one was
[1:30:45] dramatically decreasing my caffeine
[1:30:47] intake which I found was almost like
[1:30:49] turning up the volume on static made it
[1:30:52] very difficult for me to read or feel
[1:30:54] that's other things it's I was using it
[1:30:58] maybe for many reasons but it had the
[1:31:00] side effect at least of muting maybe
[1:31:02] that was why I did it subconsciously
[1:31:03] many of these feelings ii was in fact a
[1:31:09] video that was recommended to me but it
[1:31:11] corresponds to a book called the gift of
[1:31:13] fear by Gavin de Becker and who actually
[1:31:16] owns a company that does protective
[1:31:21] services and executive security so you
[1:31:23] have to keep in mind maybe you don't
[1:31:26] always want to ask a barber if you need
[1:31:27] a haircut so keeping that in mind it it
[1:31:32] also in brief points to the benefits of
[1:31:36] some of these reactions or emotional
[1:31:41] states that we are prone to labeling
[1:31:43] negative yeah and the as you said not to
[1:31:50] make anyone paranoid but rather to
[1:31:52] inform them
[1:31:54] these are currently existent risks and
[1:31:58] one of the hopes certainly with say
[1:32:02] ultimately better researching these
[1:32:05] compounds after they've been really
[1:32:08] unfairly but for understandable reasons
[1:32:11] politicized and put into the same
[1:32:14] schedule in the United States as heroin
[1:32:16] and cocaine to have them rescheduled so
[1:32:19] that they are prescribed 'el in if then
[1:32:21] that happens the ability to certify
[1:32:26] therapists to regulate and to maintain a
[1:32:30] a broad type of quality control goes up
[1:32:33] so that's also so one of the hopes is
[1:32:35] that that will decrease the likelihood
[1:32:39] of bad actors and allow appropriate
[1:32:43] punishment for bad actors because mind
[1:32:44] you as we know even in legalized
[1:32:47] legitimate professions it still happens
[1:32:50] this is stuff happen it's the most so
[1:32:52] ultimately you know gut feelings are
[1:32:56] still the best response and let me
[1:32:57] address first why we shut down our gut
[1:32:59] feelings if I may please so a human
[1:33:04] being has two fundamental needs apart
[1:33:07] from the physical needs in infancy in
[1:33:09] childhood one is for attachment now
[1:33:12] attachment is the closeness and
[1:33:14] proximity with another human being for
[1:33:17] the sake of being looked after or for
[1:33:19] the sake of looking after the other
[1:33:21] human beings as mammals and even birds
[1:33:25] are creatures of attachment we have to
[1:33:28] connect and attach because otherwise we
[1:33:29] don't survive if there's nobody that's
[1:33:31] motivated to take care of us to attach
[1:33:34] to us that way and we've not motivated
[1:33:36] to attach to others we just can't
[1:33:39] survive one additional thing is is that
[1:33:43] the endorphins which are the body's
[1:33:45] internal opiate like chemicals which
[1:33:49] heroin and all the other opiates
[1:33:51] resemble they have to facilitate
[1:33:54] attachment so if you take infant mice
[1:33:58] and you're knock out their and orphan
[1:34:00] receptors so they don't have endorphin
[1:34:02] opiate activity in their brain they
[1:34:04] won't cry for help and separated from
[1:34:06] their mothers
[1:34:07] which would mean that they would die in
[1:34:08] the wild and which goes back to what
[1:34:12] happens in early in childhood when
[1:34:14] there's stress and trauma these these
[1:34:16] endorphin systems don't develop and then
[1:34:19] when people do heroin it feels like a
[1:34:20] war soft hug to them they feel love and
[1:34:23] connection for the first time that's why
[1:34:24] it's so powerful but so we had this need
[1:34:28] for attachment without which obviously
[1:34:30] the human infant was the most helpless
[1:34:32] the most dependent the least mature of
[1:34:34] any creature in the universe at birth
[1:34:38] cannot survive without the attachment
[1:34:40] and that attachment relationship given
[1:34:42] that me of the longest period of
[1:34:43] development of any creature you know
[1:34:45] well into adolescence and and beyond
[1:34:51] attachment is not a negotiable need but
[1:34:56] we have another need which is
[1:34:57] authenticity
[1:34:57] now authenticity although the self means
[1:35:00] being connected to ourselves just
[1:35:02] knowing what we feel and being able to
[1:35:04] act on it so that means our gut feelings
[1:35:07] so let's look at how human beings
[1:35:09] evolved 400 thousands of years and 400
[1:35:13] thousand years or so of this species
[1:35:15] existing on earth how did we live we
[1:35:18] didn't live in cities and houses and so
[1:35:20] on millet they're out there in the wild
[1:35:21] until very recently in human existence
[1:35:25] now just how long do you survive in the
[1:35:27] wild if you're not connected to your gut
[1:35:29] feelings not very long not very long if
[1:35:32] you start using your intellect instead
[1:35:33] of your gut feelings you just don't
[1:35:35] survive so that's a powerful survival
[1:35:39] need as well so attachment is a survival
[1:35:41] need authenticity survival need but what
[1:35:44] happens if your authenticity threatens
[1:35:47] your attachment relationships for
[1:35:50] example is a two-year-old you get angry
[1:35:52] because you can get that cookie before
[1:35:54] dinner but your parents can't handle
[1:35:57] anger because they grew up in homes when
[1:35:59] there was rage ilysm and they're
[1:36:00] terrified that the very expression of
[1:36:02] anger so they give you the message that
[1:36:04] good old kids don't get angry the
[1:36:07] message you receive is not that good
[1:36:08] look is don't get angry but the angry
[1:36:10] little kids don't get loved because your
[1:36:12] parents are now sullen they won't look
[1:36:14] at you they talk to you in a harsh way
[1:36:15] you're not getting loved not
[1:36:18] experiencing love at that moment now
[1:36:20] diversely attached guess what you're
[1:36:22] gonna suppress the authenticity every
[1:36:25] time and this is obvious connection to
[1:36:28] ourselves and to our gut feelings so
[1:36:29] that strangely enough that very dynamic
[1:36:31] which is essential for human survival in
[1:36:33] a natural setting not becomes a threat
[1:36:36] to our survival in his in this more
[1:36:39] modern setting where to stay authentic
[1:36:41] is to threaten attachment and so we give
[1:36:44] up her authenticity and then we wonder
[1:36:45] who the hell you are and whose life is
[1:36:47] this and who's experiencing all this and
[1:36:50] this life doesn't you know and Who am I
[1:36:52] really
[1:36:53] and so that's where the reconnection has
[1:36:55] to happen that's what the healing
[1:36:56] happens is with that reconnection but
[1:36:58] it's because of that conflict
[1:37:01] the tragic conflict in childhood between
[1:37:04] authenticity and attachment that most of
[1:37:05] us face that we lose ourselves in this
[1:37:08] connection they're good feelings there's
[1:37:12] so many directions we can go with this
[1:37:14] and I'm really glad you shared that
[1:37:18] because I had an enormous that
[1:37:21] observation has had an enormous impact
[1:37:23] on some of my close friends and
[1:37:25] something I was only exposed to really
[1:37:28] today because our mutual friend Vicky
[1:37:31] recommended that I asked you to expand
[1:37:33] on it what I'd love to return to if we
[1:37:36] can can I say something
[1:37:37] yeah of course sorry in this building
[1:37:40] there's a picture of Elvis Presley yes
[1:37:42] so the song of his that I play at my
[1:37:43] retreats or and my the events all the
[1:37:45] time it's called anyway you'll love me
[1:37:48] remember how it goes I don't I could
[1:37:51] actually play it for you but it goes
[1:37:52] anywhere you love me that's the way I'll
[1:37:54] be in your hands my heart is clay I'll
[1:37:57] be strong as a mountain or weak as a
[1:38:01] willow tree I'll be powerful I'll be
[1:38:05] like a little baby anyway you want me
[1:38:08] that's how I will be now that's
[1:38:10] considered a love song it isn't it's a
[1:38:12] lack of love song hmm it's a song that
[1:38:14] says chest attached to me I'll give up
[1:38:17] anything about myself just accept me the
[1:38:20] way you want me to be so it's a saddest
[1:38:22] song and when you hear him sing it this
[1:38:25] deep sadness in it
[1:38:26] and some of the power of presley
[1:38:28] actually came from his own suffering
[1:38:31] he wasn't here singing a song he was
[1:38:33] actually
[1:38:34] infusing it with all the emotions of
[1:38:36] laughs so even though it's presented
[1:38:38] like a love song it's actually a song
[1:38:40] about the loss of love and that's the
[1:38:42] situation of the infant who says just
[1:38:45] love me I'll be anything you want me to
[1:38:49] be and that's the that's the tragic
[1:38:52] conflict there's an attachment and
[1:38:53] authenticity yeah so this ties into
[1:38:56] exactly where I was going yeah which is
[1:38:59] related to your pre and post work with
[1:39:05] psychedelics yeah and for people who are
[1:39:08] watching this or listening to it I'm
[1:39:11] returning to this not because I want to
[1:39:13] hammer home psychedelics they're not for
[1:39:15] everyone and in my experience the vast
[1:39:18] majority I should say in my observation
[1:39:21] the vast majority of psychedelic use is
[1:39:23] very responsible and and I would not
[1:39:26] recommend because you it can it can
[1:39:31] certainly cause a good amount of harm if
[1:39:33] not done in a supervised safe fashion
[1:39:36] but the pre and post work could apply to
[1:39:42] many modalities I mean it it does in
[1:39:45] this case this example they were talk
[1:39:47] about apply to psychedelics but it could
[1:39:50] in correct me if I'm wrong but it seems
[1:39:52] like I could very easily apply to going
[1:39:54] into any intense or unusual modality no
[1:39:58] like VIP pass on a medication for
[1:40:00] possible yeah like oh yeah this date
[1:40:03] with destiny Tony Robbins I I mentioned
[1:40:05] which is certainly intense and very very
[1:40:07] different very powerful that's why I'm
[1:40:10] coming back to this but we can discuss
[1:40:12] it as it applies specifically to
[1:40:13] psychedelics and even specifically to
[1:40:16] ayahuasca that is the primary that's the
[1:40:21] primary compound we're talking about
[1:40:23] which is really just for people who are
[1:40:25] wondering it's one of the reasons
[1:40:28] ayahuasca is really tricky is that it is
[1:40:33] unlike say I'm gonna get off the topic
[1:40:35] for a second but it's still on topic
[1:40:37] it's not quite like mushrooms and what
[1:40:44] people consider the primary psychoactive
[1:40:46] molecule of psilocybin
[1:40:48] it's a bit different it's more of an
[1:40:49] old-fashioned it's like if you go to a
[1:40:50] bar and you order vodka and soda pretty
[1:40:52] much everywhere you go
[1:40:53] vodka soda yeah very similar assuming
[1:40:56] the pour is the same yeah
[1:40:57] ayahuasca is more like an old-fashioned
[1:41:00] there are a few ingredients that are
[1:41:02] almost always there so if you go to
[1:41:05] let's say I want to say God bow or other
[1:41:08] parts of Peru it's going to be mostly
[1:41:09] the ayahuasca vine plus plant called
[1:41:12] Czech koruna yeah or a psychotria
[1:41:14] viridis which is a DMT I think I suppose
[1:41:18] it must be nn DMT campaign containing
[1:41:20] plant which is made orally active
[1:41:22] through the MA
[1:41:24] o inhibitors monoamine oxidase
[1:41:26] inhibitors in the vine how they figured
[1:41:29] that out is a whole separate story which
[1:41:31] is kind of wild the plants told them is
[1:41:34] the short version
[1:41:35] I know although I have a science
[1:41:37] scientific friend who gave me a starting
[1:41:39] this simple explanation which oh well
[1:41:41] it's essentially the rest in mind when I
[1:41:44] was improved they also told me the
[1:41:46] plants told us which on some level I
[1:41:48] accept but but I just want to say
[1:41:51] something here because we're talking in
[1:41:52] an extended way about the psychedelics I
[1:41:54] don't create the impression that this is
[1:41:55] most of my life or work it isn't I do
[1:41:57] this stuff one or two or three weeks a
[1:42:00] year so it's not like the major part of
[1:42:03] what I do but it is a very interesting
[1:42:04] part because it illuminates everything
[1:42:06] else that I do in a sense that it goes
[1:42:09] very deep now
[1:42:11] this scientific friend when the science
[1:42:12] friend of mine says actually they were
[1:42:15] let's say using the ayahuasca and
[1:42:18] boiling it up because IOSCO itself the
[1:42:20] vine has some secretary profits on its
[1:42:22] own without the chacruna
[1:42:24] yeah very strong auditory yeah yeah so
[1:42:28] then what happens is some Leafs of sugar
[1:42:31] gonna fall into it mmm inevitably over
[1:42:34] the years that's gonna happen or they
[1:42:35] say oh well this combination is even
[1:42:38] more powerful yeah so then it need not
[1:42:40] be as esoteric as it could have been a
[1:42:43] rather simple discovery you know so who
[1:42:47] knows what the real story is but in any
[1:42:50] case the preparation and the processing
[1:42:52] yeah so and I'm just gonna add welcome
[1:42:55] to that which is that is one combination
[1:42:58] you then also have
[1:43:00] in certain regions of and it's found in
[1:43:03] other places outside of Peru yes most
[1:43:05] certainly in the largest ayahuasca as
[1:43:07] sacrament based churches are actually
[1:43:09] out of Brazil yeah
[1:43:10] but the it can also be ayahuasca vine
[1:43:14] plus yeah hay which is a different plant
[1:43:17] I'm also DMT containing but a a for some
[1:43:22] people a substantially different
[1:43:23] experience yeah and then the only reason
[1:43:26] I'm mentioning this is so that people
[1:43:28] are aware of why I am particularly
[1:43:30] concerned when people are cavalier about
[1:43:34] hey my friends ordering some ayahuasca
[1:43:37] from Hawaii and we're gonna put it in a
[1:43:38] slow cooker and have it at his house
[1:43:39] this weekend I'm like bad bad idea
[1:43:42] many many centers even well-intentioned
[1:43:46] centers in in bid who will also put
[1:43:49] other things in the brew because they
[1:43:51] think that foreigners want more of X so
[1:43:53] the coca leaves they'll put self think
[1:43:55] cocaine coca leaves they'll put PO way
[1:43:57] which is even doctora which is even
[1:44:02] scarier in some respects coca not that
[1:44:04] scary so just be aware that when you say
[1:44:07] ayahuasca not you but when people think
[1:44:10] ayahuasca is not a standardized rose
[1:44:12] that you were getting and recently I was
[1:44:14] at a retreat in Costa Rica where really
[1:44:17] four different nine state ceremonies in
[1:44:19] each time with a different concoction Oh
[1:44:20] God so one night with the Peruvian she
[1:44:23] people tradition preparation one night
[1:44:26] with the yah-hey from Colombia and you
[1:44:29] know it's who prepares it how much they
[1:44:32] bullet for what combination what
[1:44:35] intention and so on so that's by and
[1:44:38] large true that that and really the
[1:44:42] people I worked with they you know this
[1:44:44] is always not that it's always the same
[1:44:46] drink every night but it's pretty much
[1:44:48] the same preparation same preparation
[1:44:49] yeah yeah and so I took us down a little
[1:44:53] rabbit hole but the the question I have
[1:44:56] is with all of your clinical experience
[1:44:57] in recognizing that this is a therapy
[1:45:00] but it's an adjunct therapy it's not
[1:45:02] used in isolation yeah and you've
[1:45:05] through trial and error and design come
[1:45:09] to a place now where you have maybe
[1:45:11] certain best practice
[1:45:13] is or approaches to the pre pre and post
[1:45:17] work mm-hmm could you tell us about
[1:45:19] either or both of those and you know
[1:45:22] ideally maybe exercises or questions
[1:45:25] people could think about on their own I
[1:45:30] know it's it's hard to recommend that in
[1:45:33] isolation perhaps but I'd love to hear
[1:45:36] any any details that you're willing to
[1:45:38] share about the pre and post-show
[1:45:39] because it's so so important I just it's
[1:45:43] hard to for me at least in my limited
[1:45:45] experience even to overemphasize well
[1:45:48] with Iowa so specifically which is not
[1:45:51] dealing them with the LD I work with but
[1:45:53] with that specifically there's a
[1:45:55] physical preparation for example no
[1:45:56] caffeine for a period of time no red
[1:46:00] meat cutting down on salt excluding
[1:46:05] dairy products so there's a physical
[1:46:07] preparation just to cleanse the body and
[1:46:09] and to make it more receptive to the
[1:46:10] ayahuasca from the emotional and
[1:46:14] psychological point of view you want
[1:46:16] somebody to really fund an intention
[1:46:18] what I actually I want are this
[1:46:19] experience because intention is
[1:46:21] everything so it's not like I'm gonna
[1:46:23] take the stuff and let's see what
[1:46:25] happens why am I here for why am i
[1:46:27] coming what is my intention and going
[1:46:28] there what do I want to find out what
[1:46:30] issues am i working with
[1:46:31] so intention setting and and and really
[1:46:34] considering what is my purpose in
[1:46:37] undertaking this this experience when
[1:46:43] people arrive we don't just plunge into
[1:46:45] ceremony in my Iowa's career treats we
[1:46:50] have a day and a half of group
[1:46:51] preparation so everybody articulates
[1:46:53] their intention why they're there and we
[1:46:56] deeply explore for that intention arised
[1:46:59] a role sorry and what in their lives
[1:47:02] brought them to this point and what
[1:47:04] issues they need to deal with and my way
[1:47:09] of working is to get people very deeply
[1:47:11] to their core issues which they may not
[1:47:15] be even aware of but again through this
[1:47:18] process I called compassionate inquiry
[1:47:19] and this is true whether I'm working
[1:47:21] with plants or not they get to to see
[1:47:25] what it is that they're
[1:47:27] seeking and work what are they seeking
[1:47:29] they're seeking themselves they're
[1:47:30] seeing the connection ultimately but
[1:47:32] there's steps that you go through and
[1:47:35] then we help them to set a specific
[1:47:37] intention for that first ceremony and
[1:47:42] the specific intention is what do I want
[1:47:44] to learn tonight not just what I want to
[1:47:46] learn in general but what I've learned
[1:47:47] tonight some people want to learn about
[1:47:53] tell me about my fear teach me about my
[1:48:01] pain show me what love is
[1:48:06] show me what courage is show me what my
[1:48:09] strength is see it's not that the Iowas
[1:48:12] comes with an agenda it works through
[1:48:16] you and it manifests What's in you so
[1:48:20] that your intention the more specific it
[1:48:23] is to you where you are in life at that
[1:48:24] moment the more effective it's going to
[1:48:27] be and then the shamans work with you
[1:48:31] during the ceremony and and they chant
[1:48:32] to you based on what they're picking up
[1:48:34] from you at that moment they work with
[1:48:37] you energetically sometimes they work
[1:48:39] hands-on as well and you both have your
[1:48:46] own experience and you share the group
[1:48:47] energy and then people go to sleep and
[1:48:51] the next day and then the following day
[1:48:54] we then process or what happened to you
[1:48:56] what do what visions came to you now
[1:48:58] some people hold of visions some people
[1:49:01] with more prosaic Minds like an evil and
[1:49:03] all the ever get visions yeah I did
[1:49:05] originally get visions but it's been
[1:49:07] years since I've seen anything
[1:49:09] some people have bodily experiences some
[1:49:11] people have go to him in intense
[1:49:14] emotional states which in my view are
[1:49:17] always memories of maybe forgotten
[1:49:22] memories but indwelling memories of very
[1:49:25] early experiences intense some people
[1:49:29] have beautiful entities coming and
[1:49:30] teaching them you know Jaguars and
[1:49:32] anacondas or various angelic entities
[1:49:36] I've never been blessed with that and
[1:49:38] I used to get frustrated but actually
[1:49:41] whatever experience you have that's the
[1:49:42] experience you need to have and and for
[1:49:45] me it's not about the visions or
[1:49:47] anything it's about what is the teaching
[1:49:48] and the teaching is always there and the
[1:49:51] purpose of the processing is to help you
[1:49:53] find the teaching that was imparted to
[1:49:55] you by whatever experience you had not
[1:49:58] about comparing your experience to the
[1:50:00] night before or two nights before or two
[1:50:02] the experience of other people
[1:50:04] it's your specific experience what does
[1:50:06] it mean in your life so this is and now
[1:50:08] post retreat then again whether you do a
[1:50:16] program like Vipassana would you do the
[1:50:18] Landmark Forum or ready to do a hoffman
[1:50:22] process already do any kind of
[1:50:23] transformational work or a meditation
[1:50:26] retreat if you don't integrate what
[1:50:29] you've learned into your life and you
[1:50:30] build up some practice around it it's
[1:50:31] gonna become a memory a nice memory at
[1:50:34] best right yeah straight back into
[1:50:37] making hyper critical decisions
[1:50:39] intensively yeah 12 hours later also
[1:50:42] absolutely very destructive absolutely
[1:50:44] so the more integration we can then and
[1:50:47] and in and the general in the
[1:50:49] psychedelic work this no question of
[1:50:51] integration is becoming more and more
[1:50:53] recognized and and and a more a more
[1:50:56] practiced so integration means keeping
[1:50:59] in touch with people that can help you
[1:51:00] stay on track keeping in touch with the
[1:51:02] group that you share the experience with
[1:51:03] putting some practice into your life
[1:51:05] such as journaling meditation yoga
[1:51:09] perhaps you're going to return and do
[1:51:11] some more plant work or perhaps you
[1:51:13] won't that's entirely up to you there's
[1:51:14] no prescription to be made there but the
[1:51:18] point is to go from experience that is
[1:51:23] discrete and time limited to some kind
[1:51:26] of integration that is that happens over
[1:51:28] time how do you format that that
[1:51:31] integration are you interacting with the
[1:51:34] people on your retreat once a week for
[1:51:37] four weeks or you have two sessions in
[1:51:40] following week
[1:51:41] what is the actual format well that's
[1:51:43] evolving and that's different for
[1:51:45] different people but
[1:51:48] in general I would say that if you can
[1:51:51] talk to somebody regularly over time and
[1:51:54] if you can maintain your contact with
[1:51:55] the group so they're like a Facebook
[1:51:57] group Facebook group where people share
[1:51:58] experiences if you take on certain
[1:52:00] practices and you do them together or at
[1:52:02] least you do them simultaneously and
[1:52:04] then you talk share about practices
[1:52:06] these are all forms of integration which
[1:52:10] and we've mentioned this a few times
[1:52:12] applies to more than just the modality
[1:52:14] of using plant medicine absolutely so
[1:52:16] after this that sound like broken record
[1:52:19] but this is very recent
[1:52:20] after going to this trendy Robbins event
[1:52:21] with a number of people including we
[1:52:25] have photo online so I think he's fine
[1:52:26] with me saying it Joe Gebbia co-founder
[1:52:27] of Airbnb Marc Benioff the CEO of
[1:52:31] Salesforce was sitting right behind me
[1:52:33] mmm he wasn't part of the group but he's
[1:52:35] a friend at least an acquaintance
[1:52:37] getting to know each other in any case
[1:52:39] we kept a group text great going
[1:52:45] afterwards to hold each other
[1:52:47] accountable and also to set follow-up
[1:52:49] group calls right and so on a number of
[1:52:53] things I'd really like to underscore
[1:52:54] because you mentioned them and and I'd
[1:52:57] like to reiterate their importance and
[1:53:00] also how they transcend the present work
[1:53:04] yeah the psychedelics the first is you
[1:53:09] mentioned intentions and I'll just I'll
[1:53:13] just share my experience and also a
[1:53:16] number of recommendations that helped me
[1:53:18] tremendously
[1:53:18] yeah with samisen work but then life
[1:53:24] which is you set a clear intention but
[1:53:27] the clear intention is not the same as
[1:53:29] an expectation that's right and if you
[1:53:32] go in to and you have an expectation you
[1:53:34] can't let go of that's right you end up
[1:53:37] many people end up trying to
[1:53:38] white-knuckle the experience and that's
[1:53:40] true in general in life and it's very
[1:53:41] true for a plant experiences yeah so if
[1:53:43] you get there that this is gonna happen
[1:53:44] that's good this should happen and some
[1:53:46] people sit there the whole night
[1:53:47] resisting their experience because this
[1:53:49] it doesn't meet their expectations right
[1:53:50] so there's there's a there's a card it's
[1:53:53] a little card that I was given as a gift
[1:53:54] which I didn't come to appreciate fully
[1:53:56] until maybe a year to I've been carrying
[1:53:58] it a long time
[1:54:00] and it's it was given to me by an
[1:54:02] ex-girlfriend it's and it says the tax
[1:54:04] the task which hinders your task is your
[1:54:07] task and so you mentioned a few things
[1:54:11] and you said well that is the work for
[1:54:12] that night and I've come to know a few
[1:54:15] people I respect as I hesitate to use
[1:54:19] the word but they're because they're
[1:54:20] really only two or three people I've
[1:54:22] personally met I would feel comfortable
[1:54:23] calling a shaman and they all have
[1:54:26] minimum 10-15 years experience in a
[1:54:31] traditional apprenticeship setting and
[1:54:34] by the way that means deep personal work
[1:54:37] very that means sitting in a jungle by
[1:54:38] yourself being bitten by mosquitoes
[1:54:40] doing that means drinking various plants
[1:54:44] tobacco and other plants not beyond
[1:54:46] Iowa's rent and really preparing I know
[1:54:48] somebody on that path right now let me
[1:54:50] tell you very deep its deep committed
[1:54:52] work it's not very faint over here even
[1:54:54] I would never do it yeah it's very
[1:54:55] intense a very very intense and I mean
[1:54:59] there are people do 15 months of
[1:55:00] isolation dieting various plants no sex
[1:55:02] an assault a fork in the road man you
[1:55:04] know you know this really won't get into
[1:55:05] right now and what's with they've
[1:55:09] they've shared a few examples with me of
[1:55:14] say I I've never well that's not true
[1:55:18] but I I have always in the past shied
[1:55:21] away from large groups that's why I was
[1:55:22] taken aback with mentioning 50 people
[1:55:27] but it is it seems very common in any
[1:55:34] group especially larger groups and this
[1:55:36] is true in psychedelics or at the pass
[1:55:39] on of retreats they actually the
[1:55:40] nickname for it that was given at the
[1:55:42] the 10-day silent retreat I did it's
[1:55:44] spirit rock was the Vipassana Vendetta
[1:55:46] where you decide that someone who's
[1:55:48] sitting close to you is coughing too
[1:55:50] loudly clears their throat too often or
[1:55:52] whatever and it starts to you start to
[1:55:55] perseverate and think about it
[1:55:56] incessantly and maybe get angry about it
[1:55:58] and since they don't watch any own
[1:56:00] reaction instead of watching your
[1:56:01] reaction and you know that they're the
[1:56:04] example that was given to me by this
[1:56:07] this this particular I'm just going to
[1:56:10] say ayahuasca door to simplify things
[1:56:12] ayahuasca Doyle some
[1:56:14] works with iOS Conn was told me about
[1:56:17] this this this Westerner came down I
[1:56:19] guess guess they're kind of Westerners -
[1:56:22] they're just south of the border so
[1:56:23] northern American who came down and was
[1:56:26] furious that someone in the group
[1:56:28] wouldn't shut up with their screaming he
[1:56:30] was just furious about this and there
[1:56:32] are a number of ways an organizer can
[1:56:34] handle that but he took the guy outside
[1:56:36] and he said that person is your work
[1:56:39] tonight absolutely and if you think
[1:56:42] about that reframe and how to view
[1:56:47] something that perhaps historically you
[1:56:49] would respond to as a problem or an
[1:56:51] annoyance or offensive to view that and
[1:56:56] there's certain times where you have to
[1:56:58] fight and stand up for yourself I'm not
[1:56:59] saying you shouldn't but I think that in
[1:57:02] my case and in the cases of many folks
[1:57:04] we fight too often we were ourselves out
[1:57:06] we get upset too often how can you view
[1:57:08] that as a gift how can you view that as
[1:57:09] your work
[1:57:10] look can I again give you a quote yes
[1:57:13] please which I love it's one of my from
[1:57:15] one of my favorite teachers and his name
[1:57:17] is aah illness and he says your
[1:57:20] conflicts all the difficult things
[1:57:22] they're problematic situations in your
[1:57:25] life are not chance or haphazard they're
[1:57:28] actually yours they're specifically
[1:57:30] yours designed specifically for you by a
[1:57:33] part of you that loves you more than
[1:57:34] anything else the part of you that loves
[1:57:37] you more than anything else has created
[1:57:38] roadblocks to lead you to yourself
[1:57:40] you're not going you're not going to go
[1:57:42] in the right direction unless there's
[1:57:43] something freakin on the side saying
[1:57:45] telling you look here this way that part
[1:57:48] is you love you so much that part of you
[1:57:49] loves you so much that it doesn't want
[1:57:51] you to lose the chance it will go to
[1:57:54] extreme measures to wake you up it will
[1:57:56] make you suffer greatly if you don't
[1:57:57] listen what else can it do that's its
[1:58:00] purpose and I found this to be true of
[1:58:04] physical illness and mental problems and
[1:58:08] everything you got to see what is the
[1:58:10] teaching here so we can look at all
[1:58:12] these things as problems to get rid of
[1:58:14] which is what the personality wants to
[1:58:16] do or we can look at them as learning
[1:58:18] opportunities which is what your true
[1:58:20] self wants to do now two things one is
[1:58:24] you talked about intention in life
[1:58:27] my wife and I had a holiday recently in
[1:58:29] Costa Rica a party was a working holiday
[1:58:31] but partly it was just a holiday
[1:58:33] traditionally we've had terrible times
[1:58:35] doing holidays party because my book
[1:58:38] haul is them and once they go into a
[1:58:39] holiday I just collapsed and know my
[1:58:41] wife is dragging a corpse around you
[1:58:43] know because I'm a workaholic you know
[1:58:46] and I hadn't clear space so so this time
[1:58:48] we actually want to do a holiday with
[1:58:50] intention this is nothing but
[1:58:52] psychedelics just to do it that we set
[1:58:54] an intention what is it our intention
[1:58:56] and if we have an intention I've learned
[1:58:58] from a couple of very wife's teachers
[1:58:59] what structures we want to set up to
[1:59:02] support our intention and how are we
[1:59:04] gonna handle when there's kind of
[1:59:06] disagreement or conflict with a
[1:59:07] beautiful holiday because it was the
[1:59:10] first intentional holiday that we've had
[1:59:12] so that intention in life in general is
[1:59:15] absolutely essential like every morning
[1:59:17] what is my actual intention I want to do
[1:59:19] a bit of an exercise sure okay and then
[1:59:21] you know if you don't like it just tell
[1:59:22] me when was the last this is something I
[1:59:26] do in my groups or when I speak or in a
[1:59:30] song when I teach so yes I ask people to
[1:59:35] tell me some recent episode whenever
[1:59:37] said with somebody with their lives and
[1:59:39] something that they were open to sharing
[1:59:40] so it doesn't have anything sordid or
[1:59:42] thing but just sending out whether it's
[1:59:43] your spouse partner the bus driver I
[1:59:46] don't care sure a friend okay so I you
[1:59:49] think about anything okay I can share
[1:59:51] anything just where you're upset with
[1:59:53] somebody okay yes okay so what happened
[1:59:56] describe it what happened yeah alright
[1:59:57] there were a number of issues in my home
[2:00:02] broken aspects of the home things that
[2:00:06] were falling apart or needed to be fixed
[2:00:08] physically physically okay yeah right
[2:00:10] and I had hired someone to do these
[2:00:12] things right while I was gone
[2:00:14] okay and I came back and none of them
[2:00:15] were fixed okay and your emotional
[2:00:17] reaction was anger rage anger okay
[2:00:21] anything else besides anger mmm I think
[2:00:27] they're close cousins frustrate
[2:00:31] personal frustration his anger yeah yep
[2:00:34] was disappointed disappointed his
[2:00:38] sadness yeah it's a different feeling
[2:00:40] so it's disappointed myself also because
[2:00:43] I started to look at how maybe well
[2:00:45] disappointed is not so much an emotion
[2:00:47] as a state of mind and asking what the
[2:00:49] emotions were I'm like what's inside
[2:00:51] disappointment something didn't happen I
[2:00:55] wanted to happen how do I feel there's
[2:00:59] no sadness there sure yeah there's
[2:01:01] sadness I'm not talking into it I'm just
[2:01:03] asking well I suppose um I might be
[2:01:05] confusing State of Mind and states of
[2:01:07] mind and emotions I'm not sure I look at
[2:01:10] the raw emotion yeah sadness
[2:01:13] so there's anger and sadness those are
[2:01:15] the emotions let's let's go with that
[2:01:17] okay so I'm gonna ask you a silly
[2:01:19] question
[2:01:20] what were you said in angry about well I
[2:01:26] suppose the answer which is not the
[2:01:29] right answer I'm expecting was as angry
[2:01:31] that someone had made commitments to me
[2:01:34] and not fulfilled those commitments
[2:01:36] okay what that's what happened they've
[2:01:39] made the commitment but that doesn't
[2:01:41] tell me what you're sad or angry well
[2:01:45] what does that mean that they didn't
[2:01:47] fulfill their commitments uh meant that
[2:01:50] they didn't care about me they didn't
[2:01:55] say I have that they respect me so they
[2:01:59] didn't care about you didn't respect you
[2:02:00] what kind of person doesn't get cared or
[2:02:01] respected mmm-hmm I might need a
[2:02:09] lifeline here I don't know someone who
[2:02:12] doesn't deserve to be cared for a
[2:02:14] respected exactly somebody unworthy
[2:02:16] right sure well respect then and and
[2:02:18] care okay know if two other people here
[2:02:23] which they usually are when I do this
[2:02:25] exercise I would ask them okay we just
[2:02:27] listened to him tell us about this
[2:02:29] experience are there other reasons why
[2:02:31] this other person might not have done
[2:02:33] the work that has nothing to do with him
[2:02:36] or her not caring about him or not
[2:02:38] respecting him so what are the reasons
[2:02:40] might there be a million-in-one format
[2:02:42] name one yep the
[2:02:43] he could have he could be in the
[2:02:45] hospital her cared one could have been
[2:02:49] in a car accident
[2:02:50] exactly he had a flight delaying got
[2:02:53] caught on Puerto Rico during a hurricane
[2:02:55] him yeah he's got ADHD yeah he and he
[2:02:59] can't follow through he's under stress
[2:03:02] and he couldn't write okay okay you know
[2:03:05] the email that I was supposed to send is
[2:03:06] sitting in drafts and I thought I'd sent
[2:03:07] it but in fact you never received it I
[2:03:09] mean okay and any number of
[2:03:10] possibilities yep no of all the
[2:03:13] possibilities that you've just outlined
[2:03:16] including that he they don't care about
[2:03:20] you or respect you which is the worst
[2:03:22] one the one I immediately defaulted to
[2:03:25] right well I mean the worst no but
[2:03:31] internally yeah internally the worst
[2:03:33] assumption that's the one that I
[2:03:34] immediately made exactly so let's notice
[2:03:36] something hey you I should say we
[2:03:39] because we're all like this we don't
[2:03:41] respond to what happens we respond to
[2:03:43] our perception of what happens right
[2:03:45] okay that's what the Buddha said it's
[2:03:47] with our minds who create the world so
[2:03:50] that if you'd found that ADHD or he was
[2:03:54] stressed or you know you might have been
[2:03:57] sad for him boy would not have been
[2:03:59] angry and you will not have been sad
[2:04:00] okay you might you know so first of all
[2:04:05] we don't respond to what happens we
[2:04:07] respond to our perception of what
[2:04:08] happens to our interpretation of times
[2:04:10] number one number two of all the
[2:04:12] possible interpretations we choose the
[2:04:14] worst one yep
[2:04:15] number two thirdly what I just said
[2:04:18] isn't true we didn't choose it it's not
[2:04:20] like you went through all these
[2:04:21] possibilities option no he doesn't care
[2:04:25] about me he doesn't respect me you
[2:04:27] didn't do that your brain jump there
[2:04:28] automatically right my question is why
[2:04:30] yep now here's the learning first time
[2:04:34] in your life that you felt hurt and
[2:04:36] angry that you when you perceive
[2:04:38] somebody didn't care about you or didn't
[2:04:39] respect you where is it happening before
[2:04:42] this is where the exercise might might
[2:04:45] might go sideways I'm gonna hit pause on
[2:04:48] that I think that's probably for more of
[2:04:49] a conversation over wine but you
[2:04:51] probably agreed it's not the first time
[2:04:52] it's not the first time very good and
[2:04:54] most people I talk to
[2:04:57] it goes back way back yeah this goes way
[2:05:00] back and into childhood mmm
[2:05:02] okay and that's what trauma is we don't
[2:05:06] respond to the present moment we respond
[2:05:09] to the past no but along the lines of
[2:05:14] our discussion it's a beautiful learning
[2:05:15] opportunity
[2:05:16] now you get to know now what if you
[2:05:19] assume for a moment that you're the most
[2:05:21] lovable most worthy of care most worthy
[2:05:27] of respect person in the history of the
[2:05:29] universe and this guy doesn't do your
[2:05:32] own what's your response any number of
[2:05:36] the other options which does not trigger
[2:05:39] their an intense negative emotional
[2:05:41] stare so there's other options who
[2:05:43] trigger that so something in use I would
[2:05:46] argue still believes that you're not
[2:05:49] worthy of care and respect and that's
[2:05:53] what gets triggered so who's the one
[2:05:54] that doesn't care about you and who's
[2:05:56] the one that doesn't think you really
[2:05:57] respect you ya know that's a learning
[2:06:00] notice and this is exactly what you're
[2:06:02] talking about you're saying how these
[2:06:04] difficult things how these problems are
[2:06:07] always teaching opportunities and that's
[2:06:09] the beauty of healing is that when you
[2:06:12] reframe things and you and you actually
[2:06:14] see the source within ourselves all of a
[2:06:17] sudden that's liberating because guess
[2:06:19] what if you're feeling that way because
[2:06:21] this guy did this or didn't do that that
[2:06:23] makes you a victim yep
[2:06:25] but if you see that you're the source ya
[2:06:27] know you're powerful yeah you're
[2:06:29] empowered they're empowered as Isis you
[2:06:32] this is something that a friend of mine
[2:06:34] here in Austin Robert Rodriguez recently
[2:06:37] said to me in a very similar way I mean
[2:06:40] it was a completely different context he
[2:06:42] was actually telling a story about
[2:06:42] someone else who was constantly blaming
[2:06:44] people for everything in the film world
[2:06:46] mm-hmm and he said if you are the victim
[2:06:49] and you're and it's everyone else's
[2:06:52] fault you were powerless mm-hmm and he
[2:06:54] said we keep in mind every time you're
[2:06:55] pointing a finger at someone and I had
[2:06:56] never heard this I I know it now after
[2:06:59] the fact that that there are other
[2:07:00] people who have said this but he said
[2:07:01] every time you're pointing a finger at
[2:07:02] someone keep in mind that there are
[2:07:03] three fingers pointing back at you
[2:07:04] exactly and I thought about that I Wow
[2:07:07] yeah this is just a good
[2:07:09] that's very sentence to keep in mind no
[2:07:12] you know this is a recording studio
[2:07:14] sometime was it this the yeah they do
[2:07:17] recordings they did they record in the
[2:07:19] past oh just I just the the Johnny Cash
[2:07:22] every record here but you know I don't
[2:07:24] know if Johnny Cash's over here its pop
[2:07:26] I would say it's possible because it's
[2:07:27] been around for a long time the reason I
[2:07:29] ask is because he's got a song that I
[2:07:30] play at all my events it's gonna in your
[2:07:34] mind it's called this is it all goes
[2:07:36] done in your mind it's on the soundtrack
[2:07:38] of dead man walking and I think he would
[2:07:40] himself it all goes done in your mind
[2:07:42] and it goes one foot in the fire one
[2:07:44] foot on Jacob's Ladder another than the
[2:07:45] fire it all goes down in your mind so
[2:07:48] whether you going to hell or I tell you
[2:07:50] on the way to heaven it all happens up
[2:07:52] here which is such a powerful teaching
[2:07:55] because this is what we can work on you
[2:07:58] know if we've if we're victims of the
[2:07:59] world ramana maharshi was a great Indian
[2:08:04] guru he said something like if your foot
[2:08:08] hurts when you walk outside you can do
[2:08:10] two things one is the rap the whole
[2:08:13] world in burlap or you can get a pair of
[2:08:15] shoes you can see yourself as the victim
[2:08:20] of the world and trying to change the
[2:08:21] world so that you'd they won't hurt you
[2:08:23] anymore or you can actually empower
[2:08:27] yourself yeah and that's what the
[2:08:29] healing is all about well I will say the
[2:08:35] reason I wanted to have you on now is
[2:08:38] because I've been so focused on trying
[2:08:41] to navigate these things myself over the
[2:08:44] last several years but most intensely
[2:08:46] over the last several months mm-hmm and
[2:08:48] I wanted to be ready to have this
[2:08:53] conversation with you and and how you
[2:08:56] doing so far I'm great I'm great I'm
[2:08:59] great I'm doing very well
[2:09:01] I think I'm the the sameness and
[2:09:04] arguably in the best place I've been
[2:09:06] maybe ever so I feel that's why very
[2:09:08] good that's a good which means that that
[2:09:14] healing just is just available it's just
[2:09:16] possible yeah you know I I got an email
[2:09:20] a few months ago
[2:09:22] a woman called Betty Nagar in the
[2:09:26] Hermann Goering was the chief of the
[2:09:29] Luftwaffe under her god that's right
[2:09:30] types wondering right into that name
[2:09:32] yeah and and he was head of the Gestapo
[2:09:34] just a an opiate addict by the way and
[2:09:38] in a very clever very ruthless man his
[2:09:46] great niece sent me an e-mail a few
[2:09:49] months ago to thank me for my work and
[2:09:52] she's been through her own process
[2:09:54] imagine the Karma she was carrying yeah
[2:09:56] and all the healing she has had to do so
[2:09:59] there was her grant her great-uncle
[2:10:01] trying to kill me and my people and
[2:10:05] there's the great niece making contact
[2:10:08] with me and to me just in your example
[2:10:14] and my example in the example of so many
[2:10:16] people I know it's not like I'm a big
[2:10:19] piece of cake you know it's gonna
[2:10:21] continue as long as I live but I
[2:10:23] experienced internally the goodness and
[2:10:25] the healing that's available to us and I
[2:10:27] didn't used to and I and I used to think
[2:10:29] I could help you everybody but but that
[2:10:31] I was beyond hearing myself that was my
[2:10:33] core belief you know well let's play my
[2:10:35] corporate for the last ten years okay
[2:10:37] it's just ain't true and anybody
[2:10:42] listening I just want to know it doesn't
[2:10:43] matter what state of mind you and
[2:10:45] doesn't matter what you're experiencing
[2:10:47] it's human it it is transmuted all it is
[2:10:54] transformable because that too soft that
[2:10:57] you got disconnected from it's still
[2:10:59] available to you so it's not a question
[2:11:01] of just talking about what happened in
[2:11:03] the past it's a question of how do we
[2:11:04] connect to ourselves and what you're
[2:11:05] describing about your own state if I can
[2:11:08] put it in one sentence you'd probably
[2:11:10] agree with me that you probably much
[2:11:12] more connected to yourself than used to
[2:11:13] be 100 percent yeah that's the s and
[2:11:15] that's the SP requisite I mean that's
[2:11:17] that's why I feel the way I described
[2:11:19] exactly gabor I really want to encourage
[2:11:22] people to learn more about you and your
[2:11:25] work and there's there's certainly a
[2:11:28] number of places they could start where
[2:11:31] would you suggest people dig more deeply
[2:11:35] is there
[2:11:36] particular book of your books you would
[2:11:37] suggest they start with is there a
[2:11:40] particular social media handle where
[2:11:42] they can pay attention and learn various
[2:11:46] announcements and see what you share of
[2:11:50] your work and others
[2:11:51] well thanks for asking the simplest
[2:11:53] thing is my website
[2:12:05] www.marykay.co.uk/awilliam visit about
[2:12:25] my work that's been seen 12 million
[2:12:27] times now so there's all kinds of ways
[2:12:29] to discover me on Facebook on YouTube at
[2:12:32] my website and I would also really hope
[2:12:35] that people check out my books of which
[2:12:38] I've written for the first one the
[2:12:41] American title is scattered and it's
[2:12:44] about ADHD and I wrote it after my own
[2:12:47] diagnosis and pretty much what I've said
[2:12:49] earlier that I don't see it as an
[2:12:51] inherited disease I do see it as a
[2:12:53] response to family multi-generational
[2:12:56] and social stress in sensitive children
[2:12:59] people say you're blaming the parents
[2:13:01] I'm not blaming the parents I don't
[2:13:04] blame myself but I know how stressed my
[2:13:06] family was when I was a workaholic
[2:13:08] doctor and so that's my first book and
[2:13:12] when you say well why are we looking at
[2:13:15] the percentage of kids with ADHD going
[2:13:18] up so fast it's not because of any
[2:13:20] genetic problem genes don't change in a
[2:13:22] population over five or ten years it's a
[2:13:25] social problem there's much more stress
[2:13:26] in the culture now there's much less
[2:13:28] connection in the culture now and less
[2:13:30] connected people are and the more stress
[2:13:31] there is the more pressure there is on
[2:13:33] sensitive kids
[2:13:34] so that's scattered another parenting
[2:13:39] book of mine is the work of a brilliant
[2:13:41] psychologist friend of mine Gordon
[2:13:43] Neufeld
[2:13:43] dr. Neufeld who is the world's leading
[2:13:45] development psychologist as far as I'm
[2:13:47] personally concerned
[2:13:49] say that advisedly and the book is
[2:13:52] called hold on to your kids why parents
[2:13:54] need to matter more than peers that's
[2:13:56] been published in over 20 languages now
[2:13:58] and it's about the fact that since
[2:13:59] kidneys attachment the attachment need
[2:14:02] is the primary drive that we have and
[2:14:04] we've talked about that it's like a
[2:14:06] duckling when the duckling hatches from
[2:14:07] the egg the duckling would prefer to
[2:14:09] attach an imprint on the mother duck but
[2:14:12] what will he do if the mother duck is
[2:14:13] not around
[2:14:14] he'll imprint on a toy or a dog or a
[2:14:16] horse our kids because the parents are
[2:14:19] too distracted and stressed in our
[2:14:21] society and are not aren't so much
[2:14:23] anymore physically as during human
[2:14:25] evolution now find themselves in the
[2:14:28] company of other kids guess what they
[2:14:29] imprint on their peer group and now you
[2:14:31] have immature creatures influencing each
[2:14:34] other
[2:14:35] immoderately and this happens through
[2:14:37] the social media
[2:14:38] it happens in personal contact and as
[2:14:40] that happens the parents get pushed into
[2:14:42] the background they get normal
[2:14:43] frustrated not they get more
[2:14:45] authoritarian or they just give up and
[2:14:47] kids therefore don't grow up they don't
[2:14:50] mature and they develop all kinds of
[2:14:51] problems not because the parents don't
[2:14:53] love them but because simply because in
[2:14:55] this culture the connection between kids
[2:14:57] and parents have been really disturbed
[2:14:59] and how do we store that connection is
[2:15:01] the subject of hold on to your kids so
[2:15:05] three of my books are what on my own
[2:15:06] this one I wrote with Gordon my next
[2:15:09] book which is on a mind-body unity and
[2:15:11] health and illness and that's a
[2:15:12] conversation you know I could have
[2:15:13] another time but again where I show that
[2:15:15] cancer autoimmune disease ALS multiple
[2:15:20] sclerosis Parkinson's colitis Crohn's
[2:15:24] disease chronic fatigue fibromyalgia are
[2:15:26] not accidental and separate physical
[2:15:29] events they had to do with the
[2:15:32] scientifically proven fact that mind and
[2:15:36] body can't be separated and when things
[2:15:38] happen emotionally there will also
[2:15:41] happen physiologically in fact it can't
[2:15:42] be any other way and that the emotional
[2:15:44] system in our brains in our bodies an
[2:15:47] important parcel of the same system that
[2:15:49] also governs the immunity no joke
[2:15:51] neurological response and hormonal
[2:15:54] response and therefore when our life
[2:15:57] length patterns of emotional repression
[2:15:59] when people have to suppress themselves
[2:16:02] you know what the main
[2:16:03] their attachments that will have a
[2:16:05] negative impact on their immune system
[2:16:08] and their hormonal apparatus and the
[2:16:09] nervous systems as well and that book is
[2:16:12] called when the body says no exploring
[2:16:15] the stress disease connection and that's
[2:16:17] been published by over in over 20
[2:16:19] countries internationally as well
[2:16:20] including in the u.s. my final and to my
[2:16:24] mind my favorite book is the most recent
[2:16:27] in the realm of hungry ghosts close
[2:16:29] encounters with addiction which explores
[2:16:31] the diction not from the point of view
[2:16:32] of disease model or a choice model but
[2:16:35] how it is a response to a childhood loss
[2:16:38] stress and trauma and how to address
[2:16:40] that and also how to deal with like if
[2:16:43] you look at the United States right now
[2:16:44] you know what the facts are the most
[2:16:47] common cause of death under the age of
[2:16:48] 50 is not overdose and in the US every
[2:16:52] three weeks you have the equivalent of a
[2:16:54] 911 in turn every three weeks the 911 in
[2:16:57] terms of the number of people dying
[2:16:59] aware is the public outcry where is the
[2:17:02] resources where is the political will
[2:17:04] where is the mobilization of the media
[2:17:05] and and all the public health energies
[2:17:07] compared to what happened after 9/11 and
[2:17:09] we have Ennis every three weeks and why
[2:17:14] because the treatment profession the
[2:17:16] medical profession and politicians and
[2:17:18] the legal profession does not understand
[2:17:20] trauma and its relationship to addiction
[2:17:22] the average medical student doesn't even
[2:17:24] hear the word trauma in four years of
[2:17:26] education doesn't mean hear the word let
[2:17:28] alone get a lecture on it let her go get
[2:17:30] a course about it the stuff I told you
[2:17:32] about brain development is still not
[2:17:33] taught in most medical schools so we
[2:17:35] have this response to addiction which is
[2:17:37] just dealing with the effects the
[2:17:39] behaviors controlling the the
[2:17:41] manifestations and not dealing with the
[2:17:43] causative factors that's why people
[2:17:45] don't get better and if you look at why
[2:17:47] right now it's because social stress is
[2:17:49] increased economic insecurity is
[2:17:51] increased
[2:17:52] you don't look at where do the opiate
[2:17:54] overdose happens more it's where areas
[2:17:57] where there's despondency and despair
[2:17:58] totally and so that's the book in the
[2:18:01] realm of hungry ghosts other than that
[2:18:04] lots of my talks are on YouTube but I
[2:18:06] think the best hub to check all the
[2:18:08] stuff out is my website and I hope to
[2:18:11] generate a podcast regular podcast
[2:18:14] fairly soon if the people are on weekend
[2:18:16] too
[2:18:17] I am strong enough and and organized me
[2:18:19] well enough to do it there'll be a
[2:18:20] podcast and I hope that'll be up soon
[2:18:23] but knowing myself I don't wanna make
[2:18:26] any promises
[2:18:26] but that'll certainly be listed at my
[2:18:28] website if it happens and could you give
[2:18:30] your website URL one more time
[2:18:31] okay dr. Gabbe on that day and dr.
[2:18:34] Garber Mata calm and to everybody
[2:18:38] listening and watching there's the
[2:18:39] camera
[2:18:42] I will also put that in the show notes
[2:18:43] so for everyone everything we've
[2:18:46] discussed the books the resources
[2:18:49] organizations everything including your
[2:18:51] website which will be at the very top
[2:18:53] will be listed in the show notes which
[2:18:54] you can find at IMTA blog forward slash
[2:18:56] podcast and it'll be right at the top so
[2:18:59] all that will be very easy to find just
[2:19:02] in closing and we may very well end up
[2:19:06] doing around to at some point it
[2:19:07] wouldn't surprise me even if it's
[2:19:10] off-camera certainly would like I spend
[2:19:11] more time together
[2:19:12] do you have any final closing words or a
[2:19:17] request or suggestion to the audience
[2:19:20] anything for people listening that you
[2:19:22] would like them to consider after they
[2:19:25] finish this interview yeah okay I hope
[2:19:32] people bulla citizen to you in a very
[2:19:34] personal sense not just as a an
[2:19:37] interesting experience but it's possibly
[2:19:41] pertaining to themselves and that the
[2:19:44] discussion with you will help people
[2:19:46] look at themselves in maybe a new way
[2:19:48] with what I call compassionate inquiry
[2:19:52] so rather than self judgment about stuff
[2:19:55] that went wrong or they did it to
[2:19:59] themselves or others they get curious
[2:20:01] what made me do that they get curious
[2:20:03] compassionately because we were all born
[2:20:06] innocent and we're all born just wanted
[2:20:10] to be loving and loved and then
[2:20:12] something happens and then is it's a
[2:20:15] hard road back but I hope that this
[2:20:18] conversation helps people reconnect with
[2:20:21] that path or can or encourage them to
[2:20:23] continue on it
[2:20:25] and then secondly not to see it as an
[2:20:28] individual issue it's a social issue we
[2:20:30] live in a society that really does
[2:20:32] disconnect people and so it's not just
[2:20:34] an individual problem or an individual
[2:20:37] family problem its multi-generational we
[2:20:39] never even talked about the mochila
[2:20:41] multi-generational nature of trauma what
[2:20:42] it is we pass this on from one
[2:20:46] generation to the next not because we
[2:20:47] intend to but because we can't help it
[2:20:49] so it needs to be looked at in deep over
[2:20:52] the generations and broadly as the
[2:20:54] function of a whole society now let me
[2:20:56] give you one quick example if I may a
[2:20:58] study last year showed that American
[2:21:01] black women the more experienced the
[2:21:03] races and they have the greater the risk
[2:21:05] of asthma and what does that tell us
[2:21:08] what a gift we give people to to control
[2:21:13] their asthma we give them inhalers that
[2:21:15] contain a copy of adrenaline and a copy
[2:21:18] of cortisol the stress hormones in other
[2:21:23] words asthma as Evan who would stress
[2:21:24] I'm not going to the scientific details
[2:21:26] now it could but it won't but it shows
[2:21:29] this question is the asthma of an
[2:21:33] American black woman an individual
[2:21:35] disease was it a dysfunction of entire
[2:21:37] society and obviously it's the latter so
[2:21:40] that the Buddha said that without the
[2:21:43] many that cannot be the one without the
[2:21:44] one that cannot be the many and he
[2:21:46] talked about the interconnected core
[2:21:48] rising of phenomena so we are social
[2:21:50] creatures our brains are wired together
[2:21:52] dr. dan Siegel talks about interpersonal
[2:21:55] neurobiology we're not isolated
[2:21:57] creatures so what have you dealing with
[2:21:59] you have to look at not just the
[2:22:00] individual internal environment but also
[2:22:02] the broader social and cultural
[2:22:05] environment of which your one particular
[2:22:07] manifestation and as our mutual friend
[2:22:10] drew polish so firm P wants we need to
[2:22:14] change the conversation around these
[2:22:15] issues particular for example on
[2:22:17] addiction from a blaming and shaming and
[2:22:19] ostracizing and just medical model
[2:22:22] perspective to one that takes into
[2:22:24] account trauma and social issues and
[2:22:27] which brings compassion into it and that
[2:22:29] must be the same for all mental health
[2:22:31] issues as well and whatever we look at
[2:22:33] we have to look at both the individual
[2:22:34] and the broader context
[2:22:37] thank you for that and you mentioned how
[2:22:40] we all begin loving and wanting to be
[2:22:44] loved or needing love and then something
[2:22:47] happens and it's a hard road back and
[2:22:49] what I'd like to add to that is it's a
[2:22:51] hard road back but it's a worthwhile
[2:22:53] road back and it is possible to find
[2:22:57] your way back if you had told me that a
[2:22:58] year ago I would have completely
[2:23:00] dismissed it but I'm in a different
[2:23:02] place now and I would just like to thank
[2:23:06] you for helping people to navigate that
[2:23:09] and it's very meaningful work that you
[2:23:13] do thank you thank you for taking the
[2:23:15] time today as well thank you and to
[2:23:18] everybody listening and watching as I
[2:23:21] mentioned before definitely also visit
[2:23:24] the show notes revisit this this is not
[2:23:26] a one and done something you listen to
[2:23:28] and then you go on as if you never heard
[2:23:30] it please look at the show notes look at
[2:23:32] God boards work and you can find all
[2:23:35] that at teamed-up log forward slash
[2:23:36] podcast and to everybody listening I
[2:23:41] would just say as always thank you so
[2:23:43] much for joining