Transcript
[0:00] [Music]
[0:01] I have always used people the way other
[0:03] people use substances. Handing over of
[0:06] the power of your own life force to pour
[0:09] into somebody else is what I used to
[0:11] call love. Before I could even like
[0:13] check the words, the words came out.
[0:15] Make it worse. Like I said to God like
[0:17] make it worse. There are certain things
[0:20] that I can't do that other people can
[0:22] do. And I just know that now. And I hope
[0:24] I don't forget that. Addiction is giving
[0:27] up everything for one thing. And
[0:29] recovery is giving up one thing for
[0:30] everything. Addicts secret lives are
[0:34] dark. And the reason you hide your
[0:36] secret life is because if people knew
[0:37] it, it would destroy both your private
[0:39] and your public life.
[0:41] [Music]
[0:45] We have been going back and forth for I
[0:47] don't know how long to like make this
[0:49] happen, right? But these things happen
[0:52] when they're supposed to happen. You
[0:53] know, I would have preferred you to be
[0:55] this coming on for like your 10th time
[0:57] on this show, but
[0:59] >> if we're going to do 10th time, we have
[1:00] to do first time. So, we'll start with
[1:02] first time and then we'll we'll we'll
[1:04] ramp up.
[1:05] >> Well, what I didn't expect is that we
[1:07] would be doing a little bit of what it
[1:09] was like, what happened, and what it
[1:10] what it's like now, you know? And that's
[1:12] my favorite kind of conversation to
[1:14] have, and you're in the right place in
[1:16] your life to kind of have that
[1:17] conversation right now. Thanks for the
[1:19] little coded uh introduction to
[1:22] >> inside baseball
[1:23] >> 100%. And people can take what they like
[1:25] and leave the rest. Another little
[1:26] inside baseball thing there. But yes,
[1:29] this is the moment and this is the
[1:30] subject.
[1:31] >> Yes. And Earth school is in session.
[1:33] Liz,
[1:33] >> Earth school is always in session. Rich.
[1:36] >> So that Largo show the last time that I
[1:38] saw you when I was with Adam Skolnick,
[1:41] which I do think must have been 2018.
[1:44] And I'm trying to match that up on the
[1:45] timeline of your sobriety. You were
[1:47] either in early sobriety or not quite
[1:50] sober at that time.
[1:51] >> I think I was, if I do the math, I think
[1:53] I was four months away from walking into
[1:55] the rooms.
[1:56] >> Oh, wow. Wow.
[1:57] >> I was on my last little bender.
[1:59] >> Yeah.
[2:00] >> Yeah.
[2:01] >> You feel like you're in a really good
[2:02] place right now, though.
[2:03] >> Oh, thank you. Just energetically here.
[2:06] Thank you. I am just for today. And I
[2:09] think that's the important thing to
[2:12] remember because I get into this place
[2:13] where I start negotiating with the
[2:15] universe and I'm like, let's keep this
[2:18] like this is good. Like let's keep
[2:20] stable. I think I've had enough of a
[2:22] curriculum and I don't need any more big
[2:25] lessons and let's not have the ground
[2:27] fall out from beneath my feet anymore.
[2:29] Let me not be a creator of chaos. Let me
[2:31] not have any chaos created upon me. And
[2:34] the answer I always hear back is like,
[2:35] let's just do today.
[2:36] >> Yeah. I mean, grip too tightly to that.
[2:39] We'll see what happens. Usually not
[2:40] good, right?
[2:41] >> Trust your 24. Let's just uh you're good
[2:43] right now.
[2:43] >> This is just another, you know, lesson
[2:45] in Earth school of deepening your
[2:47] surrender. And
[2:48] >> you don't get to hold on to what you're
[2:50] not giving back.
[2:53] >> For sure. 100%.
[2:55] >> Was the decision to write about this
[2:58] stage of your life uh a difficult one to
[3:01] make or did it feel natural to you?
[3:04] >> It was really difficult. I mean, so the
[3:06] book is about my partner, Rehea, who
[3:10] died of pancreatic and liver cancer
[3:12] seven years ago, who had been a heroin
[3:15] and cocaine addict in recovery for many,
[3:17] many, many years, and then had a massive
[3:20] blowout bender relapse right before she
[3:23] died. So the book is about that
[3:25] experience which was extremely harrowing
[3:27] and I was her partner and her caregiver
[3:29] during that but it's also in a parallel
[3:31] way about my addiction that I never had
[3:35] had a name for that I kept acting out in
[3:38] my version of her bender which is I use
[3:41] people the way she used cocaine and
[3:43] heroin. So sex and love addiction,
[3:45] codependency,
[3:47] manipulation and control trying to
[3:49] outsource my care to whoever would do
[3:52] it. um like are you my mother?
[3:55] >> Are you my mother? Like that Dr. Seuss
[3:56] book just walking around like handing my
[3:58] power over to people and asking them to
[4:00] give me back a little bit of it. Um so
[4:02] the book is about that relationship and
[4:05] it's about my awakening to that. But I
[4:08] was so rattled after she died. I mean I
[4:11] was rattled with grief but I was also
[4:12] rattled with like what happened? How did
[4:16] the person who was the most trusted
[4:18] person in my entire life, like the one
[4:20] person who I trusted without any
[4:23] reservation in my life, the one person
[4:25] who could always make me feel safe, turn
[4:27] into like an absolute vampire? Um, who
[4:31] was using me and degrading herself and
[4:34] me? What did that mean? What did it mean
[4:37] about us? What I mean, it was so
[4:38] difficult to to unthread that. And there
[4:40] was a part of me that didn't even want
[4:41] to look at it because it was so
[4:43] excruciating. There's a part in the book
[4:44] where I say like when I get to the
[4:46] really bad part, I'm like, I don't even
[4:47] I still don't want to tell this story.
[4:49] Like I still don't want this to be how
[4:50] that story ended. So I wrote right after
[4:53] she died, I wrote sort of a little
[4:55] nolla, like a little 70page piece of
[4:58] fiction sort of loosely based on it. And
[5:00] I'm like, you're hiding from this thing.
[5:02] Like this isn't it. And then I tried to
[5:04] write it as a book of poetry and I'm
[5:05] like, that's not it. And then finally it
[5:07] was like, dude, you have to actually
[5:08] just sit down
[5:10] >> and say what happened. And that's what
[5:12] the book is is just um it's almost like
[5:14] a post-mortem
[5:16] >> uh on a crime scene like what happened
[5:18] here? How did we get to this point
[5:21] >> and how do we get out of that point once
[5:23] we're in it? It's hard and painful
[5:25] enough to look at Rehea and try to solve
[5:29] the equation of how she went from one
[5:31] person to the next. But that's a pretty
[5:34] easy equation to solve for. You know,
[5:37] insert heroin, you know, cocaine,
[5:39] amphetamines, you know, all of it,
[5:40] right? whatever you're inserting
[5:42] >> it's like no surprise that there is a
[5:44] complete you know character shift as a
[5:46] result of that. The harder thing is to
[5:49] look in the mirror and to try to
[5:50] deconstruct like how you went from this
[5:54] person who believed themselves to be
[5:57] something into something else
[5:58] altogether. like how did you get lured
[6:00] into that trap and what is you know kind
[6:02] of the wiring inside of you that
[6:05] impulsed you to make decisions that with
[6:08] time distance space and recovery you can
[6:10] see clearly were not in your best
[6:12] interest
[6:13] >> right and if I had written this book
[6:16] directly after Rya died it would have
[6:17] been a book about what a nice person I
[6:19] am and what a terrible thing happened to
[6:21] me
[6:21] >> you know and I think I had just enough
[6:23] wisdom and perspective at that time to
[6:26] be like it can't be that simple can it
[6:28] you know like it can't just be that I'm
[6:29] a really nice, giving, generous, loving
[6:32] person who ended up getting taken
[6:34] advantage of. But I didn't know what it
[6:36] was. And the question I think that is
[6:40] always present in any of the 12step
[6:42] rooms that deal with relationships, and
[6:43] I'm in all of them, is what is my role
[6:46] in this? How did I co-create this? Um, I
[6:50] mean, Rehea used to say to me, one of
[6:51] the things I loved about her is whenever
[6:52] I was feeling even remotely sorry for
[6:54] myself, she would be like, "There's no
[6:56] victims in this room, Liz.
[6:58] there's no victims in this room and I'm
[7:00] like I sure feel like there's one, you
[7:02] know, like I sure feel like there's one.
[7:05] So the rigorous honesty
[7:07] to start to unthread,
[7:10] not only why did this happen, why does
[7:13] this always happen?
[7:15] >> You know, how did I end up here? It's
[7:18] not even just a book about how did I end
[7:19] up here. It's how did I end up here
[7:21] again when I kind of thought I had my
[7:24] life in order in a certain way. You
[7:27] know, it's like
[7:28] >> the Zen say that, you know, first they
[7:30] pull the rug out from under your feet
[7:31] >> and then they pull the floor out from
[7:34] under the rug and then they pull the
[7:35] ground out from under the floor and now
[7:37] you're ready to begin. And that's sort
[7:40] of the state I was in after she died
[7:41] where I was like, there's no rug,
[7:42] there's no floor, there's no ground. I
[7:45] don't know how that any of this happened
[7:47] or who I am. And I'm somebody who
[7:49] thought she knew and didn't. that had to
[7:53] get untangled first though before you
[7:55] would be open and willing enough to do
[7:57] that inside glance.
[7:59] >> Yeah.
[8:00] >> Yeah. I have so many questions about
[8:02] this, but I think it it would be good to
[8:03] spend a few minutes elaborating further
[8:06] on on sex and love addiction.
[8:08] >> Yeah.
[8:08] >> Because it is a tricky thing to really
[8:10] wrap your head around if you're not
[8:12] familiar with it. Everybody has some
[8:15] connection to substance abuse addiction
[8:18] or gambling. And you know, there's
[8:20] there's many varieties of addiction. And
[8:22] it's great that there's a a kind of
[8:24] greater conversation happening around
[8:26] all of these things to to normalize
[8:28] them. But I feel like sex and love
[8:31] addiction isn't really all that well
[8:33] understood and it's still attached to a
[8:36] lot of like taboos and fears. And I
[8:38] think maybe that's what keeps it a
[8:40] little bit more in the dark. Um, so
[8:43] maybe talk a little bit more about what
[8:46] it is and and maybe how even someone
[8:49] could self- diagnose themselves.
[8:52] >> I think the best way to do it is
[8:56] to do this like a qualification and just
[8:57] tell my story and um and I think that
[9:00] people may recognize parts of themselves
[9:03] in it. I would be loathed to start
[9:06] giving tools of diagnosis for something
[9:08] that can be so subtle. But I can say
[9:11] this about me. I can say that what it
[9:14] manifests as in me is a sincere
[9:20] belief that there's somebody out there
[9:22] who I can meet who's going to make me
[9:25] feel okay lastingly. Um, and that my job
[9:29] is to find that person. And
[9:32] it's a difficult thing because of course
[9:34] culture teaches us exactly to do that.
[9:36] And especially if you're a woman, you're
[9:38] very much taught that. That's a story
[9:40] that's, you know, as old as the hills
[9:41] that girls and women are taught. There's
[9:43] an incompletion in me and I'm going to
[9:45] go find the person who's gonna who's
[9:47] going to complete me. That's the the
[9:49] sort of soft way to describe it. The way
[9:52] that I would describe how I experience
[9:53] it is that I have always used people the
[9:56] way other people use substances. So
[9:59] there are people who I have used as
[10:01] sedatives and there are people who I've
[10:03] used as stimulants.
[10:06] And what I want to take complete
[10:07] ownership over as I tell my story is
[10:10] what that has made me into over time is
[10:13] somebody who can be extremely
[10:15] manipulative. And that's the sort of
[10:17] side effect of this. It's like if I
[10:19] don't feel okay and I need to find
[10:21] somebody who's going to make me feel
[10:23] okay, then in order to get that need
[10:25] met, I'm going to have to figure out how
[10:27] to be an operator in terms of how do I
[10:30] have to present? like what do I have to
[10:32] become in order to get what we call in
[10:35] some of these rooms lava which is love
[10:37] attention validation and and acceptance
[10:39] right so that's what I'm longing for
[10:41] because I can't generate that within
[10:42] myself
[10:43] >> right so I need to go get this lava that
[10:45] like somebody else has this somebody's
[10:47] the plug like somebody's got this stuff
[10:50] I don't have it um and so what do I have
[10:54] to do like what ends like any addict
[10:57] it's like what manipulations do I have
[10:59] to do what lies do I have to Well, what
[11:01] tricks do I have to turn in order to get
[11:05] your eye contact on me? And the words
[11:07] that I need you to say, I need to make
[11:09] you say those words. I need to make you
[11:11] make these promises to me. I need to
[11:13] completely abandon myself in order to
[11:16] get you to do this thing for me. And if
[11:19] I don't get the thing that I need, I'll
[11:22] go get it somewhere else, regardless of
[11:24] what commitment I've made to somebody.
[11:26] And so when I look at my particular
[11:28] history with this, what I see is for 35
[11:31] uninterrupted years, tiny little
[11:33] interruption when I written Witten
[11:34] Roadie, pray love, there was like a
[11:36] 9-month period where I wasn't doing
[11:37] this, but which was actually the
[11:39] healthiest time of my life until now.
[11:42] >> I was just going
[11:44] between sedative, stimulant, seditive,
[11:47] stimulant.
[11:48] >> This person is extremely exciting. This
[11:50] person is extremely calming. you know,
[11:52] like, okay, now I'm so calm that I can't
[11:55] bear the restlessness and the
[11:57] irritability and the discontent. So now
[11:59] I have to go find somebody who's
[12:00] absolutely thrilling, who's going to
[12:02] like light me up until they withhold and
[12:05] then I go insane and now I need another
[12:08] sedative and now I need another
[12:09] stimulant. And this is this is what I
[12:10] did to great cost, you know, to great
[12:14] cost to me, to great cost to other
[12:16] people. Um, it involved cheating on
[12:19] people, allowing myself to be cheated
[12:21] on, breaking up other people's families
[12:23] and relationships. There's a
[12:24] ruthlessness
[12:26] that any addict has, which is what I
[12:28] have to do to get this, I will do
[12:31] >> no matter what it costs me or anybody
[12:32] else. And I knew my entire life that
[12:35] there was something wrong with me
[12:36] because I could see that other people
[12:37] weren't doing this,
[12:38] >> you know, like I think that's something
[12:39] that every addict kind of knows from an
[12:42] earlier age than we could admit, which
[12:43] is like other people aren't doing this.
[12:46] Like somehow other people are just going
[12:47] and having a Tuesday while I'm out here
[12:50] playing this like high stakes roulette
[12:52] with my life and with my body
[12:54] >> and with my heart and with my spirit,
[12:56] bringing other people into danger with
[12:57] me, like putting myself at risk and not
[13:00] being able to stop.
[13:01] >> And that low level of self-awareness
[13:03] drives shame and isolation and
[13:06] loneliness. and you start to
[13:08] compartmentalize it and create this
[13:10] secret life because deep down even
[13:12] though you know you're not ready to
[13:14] confront it, um you know that you need
[13:16] to hide and shroud it from
[13:18] >> from everybody else.
[13:20] >> There's a line I quote in the book from
[13:21] Gabriel Garcia Marquez who said,
[13:23] "Everybody has three lives. A public
[13:25] life, a private life, and a secret life.
[13:27] And the private life is the life you
[13:28] share with your family and your friends,
[13:30] but the secret life is the life you
[13:31] share with no one." And addicts secret
[13:34] lives are dark, you know, and the reason
[13:37] you hide your secret life is because it
[13:39] would destroy if people knew it, it
[13:41] would destroy both your private and your
[13:43] public life. Like if people knew what
[13:45] you were up to, you don't even approve
[13:46] of what you're up to.
[13:47] >> But the trick there is that uh the
[13:50] addict thinks that it's their secret
[13:51] life. They don't realize how patently
[13:53] obvious it be
[13:57] like we all saw that a long time before
[13:59] you did, you know,
[14:00] >> but there is something uh uniquely
[14:01] incipid about sex and love addiction
[14:03] because it isn't necessarily immediately
[14:06] obvious. you know, you're you're not
[14:08] going to be necessarily late for work
[14:10] or, you know, there's the general
[14:11] evidence that uh you know, people use to
[14:14] kind of point to someone and say they
[14:15] have a problem
[14:16] >> isn't something that you can like do
[14:20] with that kind of facility with this
[14:22] condition.
[14:24] >> Except all those things that happen to
[14:26] addicts also happen in these kind of
[14:29] obsessive malstrms of like the vortex of
[14:33] insanity that people can get into with
[14:34] each other. Like not only can you be
[14:36] late for work, you can destroy your
[14:37] entire career. You know, like you're
[14:39] going to have an affair at work with a
[14:41] supervisor and you're going to lose your
[14:44] job. You're going to hit on an intern
[14:46] and you're going to be like dismissed
[14:48] from the faculty of the university where
[14:50] you teach. Like your marriage is going
[14:51] to be destroyed. All the stuff that also
[14:54] happens in addiction also happens here.
[14:56] in addition to killing yourself and
[14:58] killing others, you know, it's one of
[15:00] the leading causes of suicide and
[15:01] homicide is like the horror that people
[15:04] get into with each other where like I
[15:07] mean you read it every open the papers,
[15:09] it's like every single day people are
[15:10] killing their partners um and or killing
[15:14] themselves over relationships and over
[15:16] heartbreak and divorce is one of the
[15:18] leading causes of suicide
[15:20] >> and sex and love addiction can be a
[15:21] thing that leads to divorce, right? So,
[15:23] so I actually would argue that it's
[15:25] every bit as destructive. But the tricky
[15:27] thing is the culture doesn't say to you
[15:30] in a million different ways, what will
[15:31] cure you is if you do more heroin or
[15:33] gamble more. What will what the culture
[15:35] teaches you in a million ways is what
[15:37] will cure you is finding true love. Um,
[15:40] and so you're being taught that the
[15:42] solution I mean you'll be told to go out
[15:45] and try again.
[15:46] >> Yeah. You just haven't found the right
[15:47] person.
[15:47] >> You just haven't found the right person
[15:48] yet. So, how many more people was I
[15:52] going to try this with?
[15:54] You know, and it's like, "Anybody want
[15:56] to be my fourth spouse? Like, anybody
[15:58] want to do this again?" Like, really?
[16:00] You want to roll the dice with me? Like,
[16:01] it's it's like how many more times, how
[16:03] many more different kinds of people?
[16:05] Like, I put the hours in on this. Like,
[16:07] men, women, open relationships, closed
[16:10] relationships. Like, I like I'm like,
[16:13] "Let me try. and was constantly trying
[16:15] to get the levels right and never able
[16:19] to get the levels.
[16:19] >> But that's why Rya is such a fantastic
[16:21] gift. You know, back to the Earth school
[16:23] idea. I mean, for people don't know,
[16:25] maybe you can explain it, but
[16:26] essentially the notion is that, you
[16:29] know, we've all volunteered for this
[16:31] incarnation. Uh, and the curriculum is
[16:35] presenting us with all of these uh
[16:37] assignments, which are essentially
[16:39] obstacles and hardship and suffering to
[16:42] test our ability to navigate them. each
[16:44] of which is its own individual
[16:46] opportunity for growth, evolution, and
[16:48] and ultimately liberation, right? Should
[16:51] we choose to accept it? Like, you know,
[16:53] in this mission impossible, you know,
[16:55] kind of context.
[16:56] >> And, you know, here comes Rehea, this,
[16:59] you know, comet, right? Who's just like
[17:01] the the most larger than-l life
[17:03] character you could ever imagine, like
[17:05] just catnip for somebody who's a people
[17:08] pleaser. Like the charisma of this
[17:09] individual,
[17:10] >> addict. And I can't imagine like the
[17:13] >> tractor beam or like center of gravity
[17:15] that this person held that made it
[17:18] impossible for you to, you know, it was
[17:20] undeniable, right? But because this
[17:23] person was so large like a comet, like
[17:26] she was going to flame out, right? And
[17:28] in the most fantastic way and it gets so
[17:31] dark like at the end there. But
[17:33] ultimately this is exactly what you
[17:35] needed to interrupt that pattern because
[17:37] short of that you could have gone
[17:38] through a string of 10 more
[17:40] relationships and kept that you know
[17:42] kettle at a low boil and never you know
[17:45] met your maker to learn the lesson that
[17:47] you needed to learn in order to you know
[17:50] evolve to this new phase.
[17:53] >> You just said that so well and that's
[17:55] that's exactly it. And I remember when
[17:57] she was flaming out and my life was
[18:00] tanking I and I was so trapped in this
[18:03] nightmare. Like suddenly this beautiful
[18:05] love story turned into Sid and Nancy.
[18:07] I'm like what's going on? How is my
[18:09] house?
[18:09] >> You're literally tying her off and
[18:10] shooting her. It's crazy stuff.
[18:12] >> How am I going down to Chinatown to get
[18:14] clean needles? How am I
[18:18] like the lady who wrote Eat Pray Love.
[18:20] >> Yeah.
[18:20] >> Like taking
[18:21] >> This is like the A24 thousand of dollars
[18:24] out of my ATM to buy Coke.
[18:26] from teenagers in the East Village for
[18:29] my partner so that she'll love me. Like,
[18:31] how am I in this? You know, I mean, and
[18:33] how am I in this is I think I don't
[18:35] think it's possible for anybody to go
[18:37] through their Earth school curriculum
[18:38] without having multiple occasions of how
[18:40] am I in this? Like, how how did I end up
[18:44] I thought this was a
[18:45] >> parachute, but it's a backpack full of
[18:47] bricks. Like, you know, like what's
[18:48] happening? Like, how am I? And I
[18:50] remember at that time just being so
[18:53] bewildered like what how is this
[18:56] happening? And I went for I remember
[18:58] going for a walk and leaving her in this
[19:00] like cloud of cigarette smoke and drugs
[19:02] in our apartment and walking down the
[19:04] street in New York and I was like I need
[19:06] to pray. I need to pray. I need to pray.
[19:07] And I don't think I've ever told this
[19:09] story before, but you just spurred it in
[19:11] me which is the weirdest prayer came out
[19:13] of me. Um, I was on like East Ninth
[19:16] Street, broad daylight, and I was like,
[19:19] and before I could even like check the
[19:21] words, the words came out, make it
[19:22] worse. Like I said to God, like, make it
[19:25] worse. Whatever this thing is you're
[19:28] doing to my life, this like sledgehammer
[19:31] that you've taken to my life, I don't
[19:34] get it. I don't I still don't get what
[19:37] this is. I know this is this has got to
[19:39] be
[19:40] >> part of an Earth school curriculum, but
[19:42] all I see is like useless suffering and
[19:44] pain. So don't be easy on me. If there's
[19:47] something that you're trying to show me,
[19:49] hammer it harder. Like destroy me so
[19:51] that I can see this because there's
[19:53] obviously something I can't see yet. And
[19:55] it did get worse. And I still couldn't
[19:57] see it. You know, like it took another
[20:00] it took a year after she died for me to
[20:03] finally be like, oh. And it took
[20:07] somebody sitting me down, you know, and
[20:10] 12stepping me essentially and just
[20:12] saying like, "I've watched you do this
[20:13] for 35 years
[20:15] >> and there's a room for this and I think
[20:16] you're not well
[20:18] >> and I'll go with you to a meeting." And
[20:20] I was like, "Me a meeting?
[20:23] >> I'm not the drug addict."
[20:24] >> Mhm.
[20:26] >> Yeah. It's so interesting because you're
[20:28] you're you're in the midst of it and
[20:30] can't see it for what it is. which I
[20:31] think gets to that other earlier point
[20:33] about like it is it's it's tough to
[20:35] notice and until you have some education
[20:38] into what this thing actually is for you
[20:42] to be able to identify it.
[20:43] >> Yeah.
[20:44] >> Paint the picture of this relationship
[20:46] with with Rehea like how it began and
[20:49] kind of where it ended up so so people
[20:51] understand you know kind of the
[20:53] trajectory.
[20:54] >> It was a very slow burn. It was like she
[20:56] was an acquaintance and then she was a
[20:57] neighbor and then she was a friend and
[20:59] then she was a close friend and then she
[21:00] was my best friend and then she was
[21:03] there was a moment I reached where I was
[21:05] like oh she's indispensable like I saw
[21:08] the impact that she had on me that her
[21:11] incredibly grounding reassuring and
[21:14] strong presence had on me. So I'm
[21:15] somebody who has always had a very deep
[21:17] fear of people and a fear of the
[21:20] unpredictability of people and the like
[21:24] anyone can go off at any m there's
[21:26] reasons that I have this fear but like
[21:28] >> folks is crazy here you know like and my
[21:31] job that I took on from earliest
[21:33] childhood was like vigilance you know
[21:36] like vigil like you must be vigilant you
[21:38] must never never rest because these
[21:41] people are capable of anything so
[21:44] read the room, feel the room. I can read
[21:46] a face from a hundred yards. I can feel
[21:49] I can sit in a house with 10 people in
[21:51] it in different rooms and I can tell you
[21:52] what everyone is feeling. Like it's
[21:53] essential for me to know and monitor and
[21:56] track the moods and the sensations of
[21:57] everyone in the room for my own safety.
[21:59] This is how I
[21:59] >> You grew up in an alcoholic house.
[22:01] >> I grew up in an alcoholic influence,
[22:03] you know, and I grew up with children of
[22:05] alcoholics and and deep alcoholic damage
[22:08] multiple generations down the line on
[22:10] both sides of the family. So, I'm
[22:13] nervous and I think and nervous is my
[22:16] baseline. So, Rehea shows up and she's
[22:20] not nervous and whatever insanity
[22:23] anybody brings. She'd lived on the
[22:25] streets. She'd been in Riker Riker's
[22:26] Island. She'd been in insane asylums.
[22:28] She'd like been in the Tomkins Square
[22:30] riots. Like, she could handle
[22:34] everybody and everything in this
[22:36] seemingly effortless jiu-jitsu way. and
[22:38] whatever crazy anybody brought, she just
[22:41] met it with this sort of cleareyed like,
[22:42] "Why are you being crazy, man?" And like
[22:44] just she was like she could just hop
[22:46] out. She was like the calm dog in the
[22:49] herd of like in the pack of dogs who all
[22:51] the other dogs laid down when Rya walked
[22:52] in. So when I saw what that did to my
[22:55] nervous system, I I experienced for the
[22:58] first time in my life when she was in
[22:59] the room this feeling of absolute
[23:00] safety. And once I experienced that and
[23:03] externalized that feeling of safety
[23:05] where you are the provider of that,
[23:08] you can't leave now because otherwise I
[23:10] have to go back
[23:12] >> to the anxiety field that I live in all
[23:14] the time. And that began my addiction to
[23:17] her
[23:18] >> and it starts with hey I you can you can
[23:21] stay rentree in my h you know you can do
[23:25] I have a spot for you. Yeah. like all
[23:27] these sort of moves that you're making
[23:29] unconscious to bring her closer and make
[23:31] yourself indispensable.
[23:32] >> Exactly. I will make myself
[23:34] indispensable to you
[23:36] >> because you have become indispensable to
[23:38] me. None of this was above the level of
[23:41] consciousness and none of this was ever
[23:43] spoken. Right? This was like this is the
[23:45] secret operating system that I've got
[23:47] underneath me that's hustling to make
[23:50] sure that my needs are met because I
[23:52] can't meet them.
[23:55] So, I constantly find myself in this
[23:56] situation, a situation I suspect many of
[23:59] you can relate to, where almost every
[24:00] day, it seems, I'm being pulled in a
[24:02] thousand directions. Too much to do. But
[24:05] I need to not just show up for it all,
[24:08] but show up with my best self, with
[24:11] clarity, and with purpose. And I will
[24:13] lean into anything that will facilitate
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[26:21] [Music]
[26:24] With this hypervigilance and this sense
[26:27] that the world is not a safe place to
[26:30] encounter somebody who is completely
[26:32] unafraid, is insanely truthful in every
[26:35] regard, has no care for other people's
[26:38] opinions. Like there's something
[26:40] intoxicating about being in the presence
[26:43] of someone who feels that liberated when
[26:45] when you're so guarded and so afraid to
[26:47] be yourself and trying to figure out
[26:48] which mask you have to wear in which
[26:50] context which is exhausting, right? And
[26:52] then here's this person who doesn't have
[26:54] any of that. How is that possible?
[26:56] Right? Yeah.
[26:57] >> And you're the successful one and she's
[27:00] the hairdresser who's weathered hardship
[27:03] and you know is not really living in the
[27:06] same socioeconomic you know sort of
[27:08] strata as you are and operating in a
[27:10] very different world.
[27:11] >> Yeah. So I was like I'll bring you up to
[27:15] my strata which is where you've always
[27:17] wanted to be
[27:18] >> and she pulls instead she pulls you
[27:20] down.
[27:20] >> And we did a little of both.
[27:22] >> A little. Yeah.
[27:23] >> We did a little of both. You know I mean
[27:24] she did write an incredible meal. you
[27:26] guys did a tour together
[27:27] >> and and and I helped her get it
[27:28] published. Like there were things I was
[27:30] doing for her. I mean, I'm very careful
[27:31] in the book to say there's two things I
[27:32] don't want to do. I don't want to
[27:34] pathize every single instance of this
[27:36] relationship. And I also don't want to
[27:37] idealize. So that's also why it took me
[27:40] so long to unthread this book. Like
[27:42] where's the truth here that's somewhere
[27:44] between pathology and idealization?
[27:46] Because we loved each other a lot and we
[27:50] cared for each other. comes across very
[27:53] and I think you do do an excellent job
[27:55] of showing like listen like this was an
[27:58] incredible person who had insane gifts
[28:01] >> who was so courageous and unafraid and
[28:04] capable and was this person that
[28:07] everyone wanted to hang all these
[28:08] amazing qualities right and also this
[28:11] you know self-destructive
[28:13] um thing inside of her
[28:15] >> and this was a person and here's what I
[28:17] could and so once I'm blinded by need
[28:20] now I cannot see the full truth of you
[28:23] because once I've idealized you and
[28:26] pedestalized you and decided that you're
[28:28] my solution and that you're my drug and
[28:30] you're the reason I don't have to suffer
[28:31] anymore, it's imperative that you not
[28:35] have feet of clay. You can't I mean this
[28:37] is a child's idealization of an adult.
[28:39] It's like you you are my I mean I made
[28:42] her into my higher power. Like
[28:43] absolutely. I was like in any
[28:45] circumstance where I would now go to
[28:47] what I call my higher power where I
[28:50] would now get silent and pray and
[28:51] meditate and ask source what should I do
[28:54] I called Ry and said what should I do
[28:56] >> and she would tell me great advice most
[28:58] of the time about what to do but what I
[29:00] wasn't seeing through that haze of
[29:02] idealization was for instance this was
[29:05] somebody who had 13 years sober I mean
[29:07] this was somebody who was like a hard
[29:10] lowbottom drug addict like living on a
[29:14] park bench with a needle in her arm.
[29:16] Drug addict, multiple stays in jails,
[29:18] like hard hard hard drug addict who
[29:21] finally found recovery in 12step and
[29:24] whose ego decided after a certain amount
[29:26] of time in 12step she didn't need it
[29:27] anymore and decided that she didn't need
[29:29] to go to the rooms anymore and announced
[29:31] to me and to the world, I am no longer
[29:34] an addict.
[29:35] >> I've cured myself of my addiction cuz
[29:37] I'm Rya [ __ ] Elias. But the best part
[29:40] is is that she says she says like I want
[29:42] to start drinking wine because my
[29:44] friends are pressuring. It's like she
[29:46] put it on her friends,
[29:47] >> her family. She said they had an
[29:48] intervention. My friends had a I don't
[29:50] even know if this is true. I doubt that
[29:52] it is. Like I think
[29:53] >> we need you to start drinking.
[29:54] >> We need you to start drinking the wine
[29:55] cuz it's uncomfortable for us when we're
[29:57] at the table drinking and you're not.
[29:58] And she's telling me this and she's
[30:00] saying I'm going to start drinking
[30:01] again. Oh, and by the way, don't tell
[30:03] any of my friends in 12step because
[30:04] they're going to be really upset. So
[30:05] this is going to be our little secret.
[30:06] this from the woman who taught me the
[30:08] phrase, "We're only as sick as our
[30:10] secrets." Right? So, she comes to me and
[30:12] says, "Like, I want to start drinking.
[30:14] It's not a big deal. Alcohol is not a
[30:16] problem for me. I'm a heroin addict, not
[30:18] an alcoholic. Don't tell anyone. And I
[30:21] also kind of hate alcohol." And I was
[30:22] like, "Okay."
[30:25] You know, and because I had created a
[30:26] construct in which everything she did
[30:28] was was right, strong, powerful, and
[30:30] cool. I'm like, "Rya is so cool." Like,
[30:32] "Rya is so cool. She's the addict who
[30:34] can drink, you know." So this is the
[30:36] kind of stuff that like when you give
[30:38] your power to away and you give your
[30:40] perspective away and you give your
[30:42] wisdom away, what you're left with is
[30:45] just I have to go along with whatever
[30:47] you say because I've fully given you my
[30:50] power. I don't have the power to be like
[30:52] hang on
[30:54] what your friends had a reverse
[30:56] intervention and they told you they want
[30:58] you to start drinking. That doesn't even
[31:00] make sense.
[31:01] >> Yeah. It it collapses on top of itself.
[31:04] Instead, I'm like, "Let's get a bottle
[31:05] of wine," you know? Um, and and so I can
[31:08] see now that
[31:10] >> she was slipping back into losing
[31:13] herself at the same time that I was
[31:16] losing myself into her. So, of course,
[31:18] the the end game was a disaster.
[31:21] I'm curious around your
[31:24] response
[31:26] now that you've had time to reflect on
[31:28] it when she gets diagnosed with cancer,
[31:32] which that was like 2016.
[31:35] >> Mhm.
[31:35] >> Like in a perverse way, that is almost
[31:38] your opportunity to really lock it in
[31:40] because now she really can be dependent
[31:42] upon you.
[31:43] >> I will take care of your every need.
[31:44] >> Yeah.
[31:45] >> And I remember in the horror of the
[31:48] diagnosis and some things happened very
[31:49] quickly. There's that famous line in F.
[31:53] Scott Fitzgerald about first slowly then
[31:54] quickly. It's been used a million times,
[31:56] but that's often how benders go, you
[31:59] know, like first she sort of slowly
[32:00] drank amister bitters and then she sort
[32:04] of slowly drank wine and then she
[32:05] started smoking cigarettes again and
[32:06] then she started doing mushrooms and I
[32:08] was going MDMA again and then it's like
[32:10] we might as well have a little cocaine,
[32:11] you know, and then it just like builds
[32:13] and builds and builds. But the slow love
[32:16] story that I was having with her
[32:17] escalated immediately upon that
[32:19] announcement that she had 6 months to
[32:20] live. I'd been hiding that love for her
[32:23] from me, from her, and from my husband
[32:25] up until that point. But the thought
[32:27] that she was going to die very quickly
[32:31] was the energizing excuse that was
[32:33] needed for me to finally say this thing
[32:36] that I hadn't been saying for years,
[32:37] which is this. I am in love with this
[32:39] person.
[32:40] >> And I left my marriage to go to be with
[32:42] her. And I remember even in the the
[32:45] horror of I'm losing the foundational
[32:48] person in my life in the first weeks of
[32:51] her diagnosis, I remember showing up at
[32:53] her apartment with my suitcase
[32:56] and saying, "I'm not going anywhere." I
[32:59] mean, like a threat. When I see it now,
[33:00] it's like it's kind of a threatening
[33:02] thing to say to somebody. I didn't say,
[33:03] "Do you want me to stay?" I just said,
[33:06] "I'm not going anywhere." And for
[33:09] somebody who can't take care of herself
[33:11] and gets her worth and value and esteem
[33:14] from what I can give to others and then
[33:16] have reflected back to me about my value
[33:18] from what I'm giving. This is a perfect
[33:20] storm because
[33:22] the feeling I had was one of utter I
[33:24] remember this deep calm where I was like
[33:26] now I know what I'm here for. My purpose
[33:29] on earth is clear. I am here to serve
[33:32] Reya's every need. I don't have to have
[33:35] an identity anymore. I don't have to
[33:37] have any needs. I can completely
[33:39] abdicate responsibility for myself. No
[33:41] one would blame me for it. I mean, I'm
[33:43] being heroic. I'm showing up for
[33:44] somebody who's dying.
[33:45] >> Yeah, that's the added bonus. Like, look
[33:47] what a good person I am. Like, I'm
[33:49] commit I'm committed to this other
[33:51] person,
[33:51] >> which is what I've always wanted to be,
[33:52] right?
[33:53] >> So, it's this weird thing because on the
[33:55] one hand,
[33:57] there's this liberation from the
[33:59] marriage that wasn't working. like you
[34:01] were able to stand up and speak your
[34:03] truth and there's a freeing very healthy
[34:05] you know kind of piece to that
[34:08] >> but only so that you could entrap
[34:10] yourself in you know in a situation and
[34:13] kind of indulge this this you know
[34:15] addictive tendency.
[34:17] >> Yeah. One of my friends in the rooms she
[34:19] and I have a our sort of daily
[34:23] kind of test of sobriety. Sobriety is
[34:26] kind of easy to chart when you're a
[34:27] substance addict. Like you're either
[34:29] using you're either drinking or
[34:30] >> it's hard to know when you've realiz
[34:36] one one definition I love of relapse is
[34:39] that in all the relationship programs of
[34:41] 12step is relapse is returning to your
[34:43] original role in the family system. So
[34:46] good, right? So, if I'm the caregiver,
[34:50] if I'm the one who's got to make
[34:51] everyone happy, if I'm the one who has
[34:53] to take care of all the grown-ups, if
[34:55] I'm the golden child, like that's a
[34:56] relapse for me. Um, but another way that
[34:59] we sort of test relapse is
[35:02] no abandonment of self. That's our
[35:04] that's this friend and I that's our
[35:06] motto, like no abandonment of self. So,
[35:08] at the end of the day, like was there
[35:09] anywhere in this day where I said yes
[35:13] when I meant no? Like when my body said
[35:15] no but my mouth said yes. Where I people
[35:18] pleased my way through some sort of
[35:20] situation in order to gain love,
[35:22] approval, validation, and acceptance.
[35:24] Where I infantilized myself
[35:26] >> because I was in a really difficult
[35:27] situation and I didn't want to face it
[35:29] and I as I try to make someone else do
[35:30] it. It's like no, you be the grown-up
[35:33] and you do this thing because I can't. I
[35:34] don't want to. So those are sort of
[35:36] these markers, but
[35:39] handing over of the power of your own
[35:41] life force to pour into somebody else is
[35:44] what I used to call love and what I
[35:46] thought was love. And now when I when I
[35:48] see it, there's a there's a sign Rya was
[35:51] a songwriter and a musician. We used to
[35:52] write music together. And there was a
[35:53] song I wrote for her that at the time
[35:56] that I wrote it, I'm like, "This song's
[35:57] so beautiful and it's so romantic and it
[36:00] encapsulates completely this story." and
[36:03] she she wrote the music for it and she
[36:04] sang it and performed it. I was like
[36:06] this is so great and one of the lines in
[36:08] it in my voice at her was I'm just
[36:11] trying to give you a home. My body and
[36:14] life are your own, right? It's like this
[36:16] complete and in our culture we actually
[36:18] kind of like reward that as what a
[36:20] beautiful romantic story. But when I
[36:22] hear those lyrics now, I'm like, yikes.
[36:26] Like, my body is yours. Like, my life is
[36:31] yours. My money is yours. My energy is
[36:34] yours. I'm your home. Where's mine? If
[36:37] I'm making my whole existence into your
[36:40] home, there's no one home here, you
[36:43] know? And I see that now. And I'm like,
[36:45] my little cousin when she was little
[36:47] used to have a little seal and we used
[36:48] to play this game where the seal was
[36:50] trapped and we would just say, "Help,
[36:51] help. I'm trapped in kelp." And I look
[36:53] at that like I look at that now and I'm
[36:55] like, "Help, help. I'm trapped in kelp."
[36:57] Like, "What am I doing?" And I'm calling
[36:59] that love and I'm calling that
[37:00] friendship and I'm calling that nobility
[37:03] and sacrifice. But what it also actually
[37:05] is is complete and total abandonment of
[37:07] self.
[37:08] How much self-awareness did you have
[37:11] prior to going into the program around
[37:14] this? Like presumably, I mean, you're
[37:16] the you pray love person, right? Like
[37:17] you're you're in touch with your your
[37:19] past and your trauma. You know, there's
[37:22] therapy. There's all these other things
[37:23] that that you're doing that I would
[37:25] imagine gave you a glimpse of some of
[37:28] these patterns and habits prior to, you
[37:31] know, kind of all the chaos that ensued
[37:34] later.
[37:35] >> And why was that not enough?
[37:38] addict to addict. You know
[37:41] >> I'm setting you up for your
[37:42] >> you have a disease. You know addicts
[37:44] have a disease that lies to them and
[37:46] says you don't have a disease. Right? So
[37:48] the first person we fool is ourselves.
[37:50] Right? So there's like a section of you
[37:51] pray love that I quote in this new book
[37:53] where I describe my addictive tendencies
[37:56] and that was 20 years ago. Like I could
[37:58] have written a doctoral thesis by the
[38:00] time I was 30 called why I act like
[38:02] this. Like I totally know the
[38:03] psychological reasons why I act like
[38:05] this. It didn't stop me from acting like
[38:07] that, right? Like what they say in the
[38:08] room, discovery is not recovery. Like
[38:10] knowing why
[38:11] >> selfawareness will avail you nothing
[38:13] >> of nothing, right? Like I I was an
[38:15] expert on my dysfunction. And every
[38:18] single time I was like, "This isn't that
[38:21] though." Even though it matches up
[38:24] completely with the fingerprint of what
[38:26] I always do, I'm not doing it. In the
[38:29] same way that Rehea was like, "The
[38:31] drinking that I'm doing isn't a problem.
[38:34] It's not a substance. Drinking and drugs
[38:36] are not the same thing. I'm an addict,
[38:38] but I can drink. It's not okay. And I
[38:40] was like, "All right." And she was like,
[38:41] "All right."
[38:42] >> She's so honest about everything else.
[38:44] >> So honest. She's so candid. She's she's
[38:46] not hiding it. She's telling everyone
[38:47] she's doing it, right? So I have
[38:50] infinite capacity to be a PR agent for
[38:54] my own [ __ ]
[38:56] >> you know, and I have to I mean, addicts,
[38:58] one of the things I write in the book is
[39:00] that addicts have to lie. Addicts have
[39:03] to live double lives because they can't
[39:05] until you find recovery. You can't live
[39:07] without the thing that you're using. And
[39:09] so you've got to create these incredibly
[39:11] elaborate
[39:13] sort of narratives to to pretend that
[39:15] you're not doing what is it is so
[39:17] obvious that you're doing. I mean Reyes
[39:18] said to me during her spiral when I
[39:20] confronted her, "Since when is cocaine
[39:22] addictive?" She looked me in the eye.
[39:25] She looked me in the eye with these like
[39:28] >> pupils like this and she's like, "Since
[39:29] when is cocaine even?" She's like
[39:31] twitching. Yeah.
[39:32] >> And and I'm like, "What did you just
[39:33] say?" And she said, "It never used to be
[39:35] back in my day,
[39:36] >> you know." And I'm like, "You're
[39:38] amazing. Addicts are amazing. We will
[39:40] say anything." And I believe that if
[39:42] you'd hooked her up to a lie detector
[39:44] test at that point, she would have
[39:45] believed what she was.
[39:45] >> Right. Of course. Um,
[39:47] >> since that's amazing.
[39:49] >> Is one of my favorite lines I've ever
[39:50] heard in my entire life. God bless her
[39:52] and me. So, I was doing precisely what I
[39:55] have done a million times. I was leaving
[39:58] someone to go be with someone else,
[40:00] which is my pattern, while at the same
[40:02] time saying, "It's not like that this
[40:04] time, even though it 100% is."
[40:08] >> Had you ever not been in a relationship?
[40:12] >> Did you just go, you were just
[40:13] overlapping them all along from
[40:16] >> one after another? I mean, I started
[40:18] when I was 15. I would have started a
[40:19] lot earlier if I was prettier. Like I
[40:21] was trying to do it earlier, but you
[40:24] know, it wasn't until I got over my like
[40:26] ugly duckling thing that I could make it
[40:27] work. But you
[40:28] >> just can't not be in a relationship.
[40:30] >> Can't. And there was a part of me that
[40:32] always knew
[40:34] that that I was missing. I was robbing
[40:37] myself of something. I knew I knew that
[40:40] it's important to learn how to be with
[40:41] yourself and to learn how to be alone.
[40:43] So the only time I didn't do it, there
[40:45] was like a 9 10 month period during the
[40:47] E Pray Love journey when I didn't do it.
[40:48] But then I met somebody who was so
[40:50] loving. Yeah,
[40:51] >> you know, was so attentive and so loving
[40:54] and and so dialed in to me and and I was
[40:57] like, I can't deny myself this
[41:00] >> like this person's so good to me and so
[41:02] kind to me.
[41:03] >> This is why it's such an innately human
[41:06] story. Like you go on this journey with
[41:08] Eat, Pray, Love, and you meet your maker
[41:12] and probe the depths of your soul trying
[41:14] to find these answers. You return, you
[41:17] meet this man, you get married, you and
[41:19] you write this book, and it's this smash
[41:22] sensation success. Uh, and and then you
[41:25] kind of slowly, you know, slink back
[41:27] into self-will and old habits,
[41:30] you know, and then you're just kind of
[41:33] doing your thing and you're like, it's
[41:34] fine, right?
[41:36] >> Yeah.
[41:36] >> And you need this, you know, comet to
[41:39] collide with your planet in order to
[41:41] wake up and realize like, oh, the work
[41:43] wasn't done when I left Bali. like
[41:46] there's still more that I have to do
[41:48] that I have to look at.
[41:50] >> What is it about needing these
[41:52] incredibly painful moments in order to
[41:54] get us to awaken to ourselves and and
[41:56] make those changes that are obvious to
[41:58] everyone else except ourselves?
[42:00] >> It's such an intractable human problem.
[42:02] >> Oh, it's adorable.
[42:04] We're so cute. We're so cute and
[42:06] hopeless and adorable and and loved. And
[42:09] when I bring that up with my what I call
[42:12] God, you know, and I want to be really
[42:14] careful when I use the word God that
[42:16] there's a Rod Bell line that I love
[42:17] where I was always like, "Whatever God,
[42:19] you don't believe in, I also don't
[42:20] believe in that God, so we're good." You
[42:21] know, any God trauma that anybody has,
[42:24] but it's a word I use for the mystery
[42:26] that doesn't have any other word that I
[42:28] do feel loves me and wants me to be
[42:32] okay. And and the way that it speaks to
[42:35] me is like, "Oh, honey, we tried as
[42:37] gently as we could
[42:38] >> to get your attention about this." Like
[42:40] we tried,
[42:41] >> right? There were a lot of there were a
[42:43] lot of knocks before it got
[42:45] >> done this without sending the comment.
[42:47] >> But why can't we just heed that gentle
[42:49] knock?
[42:49] >> Because you can't see what you can't
[42:50] see. And I think when you're somebody
[42:51] who's accustomed to being very powerful,
[42:55] which is something like there's another
[42:57] element of me where I'm like I'm the
[42:59] manifesttor. like I can create things
[43:02] like I can make like I can do stuff in
[43:06] the world. I'm a person who can do stuff
[43:07] very successfully. I'm accustomed to
[43:09] being successful. Rehea was accustomed
[43:12] to being powerful. She was accustomed to
[43:15] walking into the room and being the
[43:16] effortless alpha in every room that she
[43:18] walked into. Why the hell could she not
[43:19] manage a little bit of cocaine? Like why
[43:22] the hell could she not manage a little
[43:23] bit of alcohol? It's like this is her
[43:24] Achilles heel, right? Like I'm
[43:26] accustomed to manifesting beautiful
[43:29] things.
[43:30] So why can't I have a normal
[43:33] relationship like a normal person? And
[43:36] the thing that I find so touching and
[43:38] that I come back to again and again
[43:40] about addiction that I find so sweet
[43:42] about us. I say us as addicts of all
[43:44] sorts is like cuz you can't like there
[43:49] are certain things that I can't do that
[43:51] other people can do. And I just know
[43:53] that now and I hope I don't forget that.
[43:56] But like other people can do things that
[43:58] I can't do. I have a friend who's a
[44:00] ferocious alcoholic and we were at a
[44:02] wedding together and somebody handed her
[44:04] a glass of a flute of champagne to make
[44:06] the wedding toast and she just went
[44:07] like, you know, it says in the big book
[44:08] of a we recoil as if from a hot flame,
[44:11] right? And you know, she's like 9 years
[44:13] sober and she just was like, you know,
[44:16] she just like backed up from this thing
[44:17] and the person was like it's just for
[44:19] the photo
[44:20] >> like you can surely hold a flute of
[44:23] champagne safely in your hand. You're
[44:24] not going to drink it. And she just she
[44:26] just said I cannot do things that other
[44:28] normal people can do. Like this is what
[44:30] I have to know about myself in this
[44:32] regard. I am not normal. And I think
[44:35] what I was doing for my entire
[44:37] relationship history was trying to like
[44:39] I wrote a whole book about marriage
[44:41] trying to figure out how do I contain
[44:44] this thing? How do I do this
[44:45] successfully? How do I be normal? And
[44:48] I'm not. And that's lovely. I'm just
[44:51] not. This is how it is. And that
[44:54] abnormality that brought so much pain
[44:56] and suffering and shame and degradation
[44:59] is also my path to God,
[45:01] >> right?
[45:02] >> Because it's where my power ends. And if
[45:05] I were as good at relationships as I am
[45:07] at everything else, I wouldn't need a
[45:09] God. I'd just be out here giving
[45:11] seminars.
[45:13] >> I mean, it would find you it would find
[45:15] you in some other way,
[45:16] >> you know, and then, you know, I'm so
[45:18] good at life, you know.
[45:19] >> Here's what's great. Here's what's
[45:21] great. you're cruising around, you know,
[45:24] America doing these workshops with Rob
[45:26] Bell on creativity. You know, I I adore
[45:29] Rob. Like, what a what a wonderful human
[45:31] being. And the two of you together, it's
[45:33] like a supernova. It's like an amazing
[45:35] energy. These two human beings who have
[45:39] this spiritual connection and know
[45:41] beyond a shadow of a doubt that
[45:43] creativity is something divine. It's
[45:46] something that we can court and make
[45:48] ourselves available to flow through us.
[45:50] But it is not something that is
[45:52] generated inside of us. And it descends
[45:55] upon us when we open the portal are in a
[45:59] place of ease and and allowing like m
[46:02] you know all of that like you're the
[46:04] best at this. There is no question that
[46:08] you are tapped into something very real
[46:12] and deeply spiritual and yet you're
[46:15] walking around with this god-sized hole
[46:18] in your soul.
[46:20] determined to fill it with
[46:22] externalities.
[46:24] What applies to creativity doesn't apply
[46:26] to relationships. You have
[46:28] compartmentalized your spirituality. And
[46:31] you know, God came down and gave you a
[46:33] reckoning and said your surrender,
[46:36] you're like surrender is halfbaked,
[46:37] right? Like you have it for this. You're
[46:40] very clear about that. You helped all
[46:41] these people and you've been able to,
[46:43] you know, build this beautiful creative
[46:46] inspirational life in this one area. And
[46:50] yet you can't seem to understand that
[46:52] you need to apply it not just to this
[46:54] other area that's going sideways but to
[46:57] everything. And I'm curious like where's
[47:00] Rob Bell in this? Is he going hey Liz?
[47:04] Is he seeing this? Is he not seeing
[47:06] this? Like where's the blind spot?
[47:08] >> Oh for me like calling me out or being
[47:10] like as you're
[47:11] >> not not for him necessarily but it's
[47:13] like the the blind spot is what's
[47:14] interesting because we all have them.
[47:16] Like I'm not like judging you. I have a
[47:18] million of them. You know what I mean?
[47:19] It's like we think we've got it figured
[47:20] out.
[47:21] >> I feel like you just I don't feel
[47:23] judged. I feel the the delicious
[47:25] >> velvety softness I always feel in the
[47:27] truth.
[47:28] >> You know what I mean? Like that's just
[47:30] what you just said is true.
[47:31] >> Like I'm like, "Yep, that you just
[47:33] >> what that guy said." And
[47:34] >> so yeah, Earth school says, "We've got
[47:37] another class for you."
[47:39] >> Right. Right. We hate to do this, honey.
[47:41] And we'll do it as gently as we can, but
[47:44] here we go.
[47:44] >> Mhm. I don't think the definition of a
[47:48] blind spot is that you can't see it, you
[47:51] know? I mean, that's where that's where
[47:52] the beautiful human quality of mercy has
[47:54] to come in of
[47:57] and not instead of like how could you
[47:59] not see this?
[48:01] >> It's like of course you can't see this.
[48:03] >> Like of course, of course you can't like
[48:05] I feel the only compassionate way to
[48:08] look at an addict is not like why do you
[48:10] keep doing this? But like why in the
[48:11] world wouldn't you? You know, like why
[48:14] in the world wouldn't you? And nothing
[48:15] can save me but a miracle. Like
[48:18] psychology can't save me. Like my own
[48:21] massive creativity. I mean, how many
[48:23] times did I say precisely what you just
[48:25] said, Rich? Like I wish I could be in
[48:29] relationship with people the way I am in
[48:31] relationship with creativity. It's so
[48:33] clear to me how this works in
[48:35] creativity. It's so effortless. It's so
[48:38] beautiful. It's so warm. It's so soft.
[48:40] It's so free. There's no stakes. I've
[48:42] got no attachment to the outcome. I can
[48:45] this just happened a couple years ago. I
[48:46] can write like spend four years write a
[48:48] book.
[48:48] >> Yeah. You wrote this novel and then
[48:50] >> and then just be like, "Oh, okay." And
[48:51] just not publish it and not lose a
[48:52] minute of sleep over it, right?
[48:54] >> That was insane. I remember talking to
[48:55] Adam about that. I was like, "Is she
[48:57] mad?" Like, what was the interior
[48:59] experience of that? But I know you were
[49:01] like, "It's cool. Moving on." Because
[49:04] you were doing it for the love of doing
[49:05] it in the process.
[49:06] >> But I can't that level of detachment,
[49:08] that level of non-attachment to outcome.
[49:11] I have never been able to do that with a
[49:13] person, you know. It's just like once I
[49:16] feel that they have something that I
[49:18] need, like all addicts, you you can't
[49:21] take it away from me until it's got claw
[49:22] marks in it.
[49:24] >> So, that's my thing. That's what I
[49:26] That's what I came here in this lifetime
[49:29] to address and and that's what I'm doing
[49:34] to the best of my capacity with the help
[49:36] of a very amused God, you know, who's
[49:40] like, "All right, honey. How many more
[49:41] times you want to do this? Like, you
[49:43] done yet? If you're done yet, come with
[49:46] me. If you're not done, go try it
[49:47] again."
[49:48] >> Mhm.
[49:49] >> Like, go try it again.
[49:52] There's this persistent myth that
[49:54] creatine is just for bodybuilders and
[49:56] and gym bros. And I kind of get it. The
[49:59] marketing has been terrible for decades.
[50:01] But what the science shows is that
[50:03] creatine is actually this fundamental
[50:05] cellular fuel. Your brain uses it. Your
[50:08] heart uses it. Every energy demanding
[50:10] process in your body relies on it. And
[50:13] this connects to everything I explore on
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[51:07] When you when you came into the program,
[51:09] were you
[51:11] openhearted about it and willing to do
[51:14] the work or were you fighting it and and
[51:17] trying to convince yourself that you
[51:19] didn't fit?
[51:19] >> Which time? When I came into the
[51:21] >> I don't know.
[51:23] >> When I came into the program the first
[51:24] time, I came as a spectator
[51:27] and so a friend 12step me and was like,
[51:29] "You got to go check this out." And I
[51:31] went and I checked it out and I was
[51:32] like, "These people are super sick." You
[51:36] know, like these people are really not
[51:37] well. I'm not nearly as [ __ ] up as
[51:40] these people. The literature is good. I
[51:42] get it. I'm very smart. I'm a lot
[51:44] smarter than other people. So,
[51:47] >> just going to read the book in an
[51:49] afternoon and download it and be like,
[51:51] "Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. I see
[51:52] that.
[51:53] >> Definitely not going to get a sponsor.
[51:55] Definitely not going to ever make a
[51:57] program call with another fellow cuz
[51:58] these sick people, I don't really want
[52:00] to deal with these tragic."
[52:03] Like, this is how I was seeing it. And I
[52:05] was there for a couple months and then I
[52:07] was like, I think I've, you know, I'm an
[52:09] accelerated student so I think I got it.
[52:11] I'm cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the
[52:12] lessons. Um, I don't need this. And I
[52:15] went out and picked up again. Like
[52:18] instantly picked up another person and
[52:20] instantly did the thing I do. So after
[52:23] that kicked my ass, and this was after
[52:25] Rya died, like one comment wasn't
[52:27] enough. It's never enough, you know?
[52:29] Like I'm a lowbottom sex and love
[52:31] addict.
[52:32] um I have to have many more serious
[52:34] consequences than a normal person to
[52:36] finally give up. But then I came the
[52:39] second time I was like, "Okay,
[52:42] got it. Let's do this now. Who will be
[52:46] my sponsor? Let me take 10 phone
[52:48] numbers. Let's do the steps. Let me put
[52:49] this thing down." And
[52:52] there I was still negotiating.
[52:55] There was a beautiful moment at the
[52:57] beginning of my recovery where I said to
[52:59] my higher power who I feel like I can
[53:00] hear and who hears me. I said if I do
[53:04] this if I do this right and and I'm good
[53:08] and I do the steps and I get a sponsey
[53:11] and I like am the perfect a student will
[53:15] you send me another great love story and
[53:17] instantly I heard I will promise you no
[53:20] such thing.
[53:21] >> Yeah.
[53:22] >> You know I
[53:23] >> that's not it's not a conditional thing.
[53:25] It's not a quid proquo. Like the gift of
[53:27] sobriety is sobbriety,
[53:29] >> but I want the cash and prizes that come
[53:31] after. And the and the invitation that I
[53:33] felt at that moment was, are you willing
[53:34] to are you willing to fully put this
[53:37] thing down? Are you not willing to just
[53:39] do like 90 days of no contact with your
[53:41] qualifiers or a year of celibacy and
[53:45] working on yourself? Are you willing?
[53:46] This is my deepest dream. This is always
[53:48] my best idea for how to be well. And God
[53:51] was like, "Will you," what I heard was
[53:53] like, "Will you put it on the divine
[53:54] fire and not take it back out?" Like,
[53:56] just here, you can have this. You can
[53:59] have this dream. You can have this
[54:01] fantasy that the entire culture has
[54:03] celebrated. I mean, I eat Eat, Pray,
[54:06] Love ends with me as Julie Roberts
[54:10] literally sailing into a sunset with
[54:12] Javier Bad. Like that's the sto like
[54:15] it's literally and
[54:17] >> like that's the story I had built and
[54:20] created and God was like can I have that
[54:23] can I have that dream like can I have
[54:25] that dream can I have all and and and
[54:27] what I often hear God saying about
[54:29] surrender is like can you come to me
[54:30] with your hands empty can you come to me
[54:33] with nothing a little bit hidden behind
[54:36] your back as an ulterior motive of if
[54:38] then if I do this then maybe I can you
[54:41] know and and I did I was like like I
[54:45] pushed all the chips in. I'm like you
[54:46] can I'm putting this down. Like I'm
[54:49] putting this down with no promise that
[54:51] I'll ever get anything in return except
[54:55] a life that is for the first time in my
[54:57] life manageable,
[54:59] right? Which is the gift of sobriety.
[55:01] Like I can actually handle my life
[55:04] >> today. Today I'm okay. So that's the
[55:07] only deal
[55:08] >> that requires a tremendous reservoir of
[55:12] willingness.
[55:13] And
[55:15] willingness is something I've been
[55:16] thinking a lot about lately. And I want
[55:18] to run this idea by you that I've been
[55:22] thinking a lot about and working on.
[55:24] Your ideas around ideas in big magic.
[55:29] That's something I think about a lot.
[55:31] Like the notion that ideas are out there
[55:34] in the ether and you know when one
[55:37] occurs to you and you or you grab it or
[55:39] it descends down upon you, it is your
[55:41] responsibility or obligation to bring
[55:42] expression to it or it will evaporate,
[55:45] return to the ether and make itself
[55:47] available for somebody who is willing to
[55:49] do that. uh in the way that ideas work.
[55:54] I think there's something to be said
[55:57] that's analogous around the way that
[55:59] willingness works
[56:01] >> because I don't think that willingness
[56:04] is something that can necessarily be
[56:06] self-generated.
[56:07] You can't you can like be willing to be
[56:10] willing, but that's sort of like wanting
[56:12] to want something that you don't
[56:14] actually want. You can aspire to
[56:16] willingness, but that doesn't
[56:17] necessarily make it so.
[56:19] >> I think willingness is something
[56:22] >> that arrives from somewhere else.
[56:24] >> Much like an idea,
[56:26] >> it strikes you and then you have
[56:29] >> a brief moment of time where it's your
[56:31] responsibility to
[56:34] exercise that willingness through some
[56:36] kind of action, some kind of contrary
[56:38] action.
[56:39] >> But if you don't do that, it will pass
[56:41] and evaporate.
[56:43] Willingness is like this very fickle
[56:46] thing
[56:47] >> that I can't quite put my finger on,
[56:50] >> but it's so powerful when it does arrive
[56:54] if you have the awareness and the
[56:55] presence of mind to recognize it and and
[56:58] take that contrary action. Because in
[57:01] that moment where you did have the the
[57:03] willingness, this extreme capacity to
[57:06] turn everything over, it's a very
[57:08] dramatic act. There were many days and
[57:11] probably darker days, more desperate
[57:13] times when you didn't have that and
[57:16] couldn't make that choice.
[57:18] >> I always say I wish I'd found recovery
[57:21] programs in this problem earlier, but I
[57:24] also need to call myself out on how very
[57:27] unlikely it would have been that I would
[57:28] have availed myself of them because I
[57:30] think I still felt like I can I can
[57:34] solve this, right? I can solve this with
[57:37] my intellect. Mhm.
[57:39] >> If I learn more, like I'm a great
[57:41] student. So, it's like I'll learn I'll
[57:44] learn more. Like I felt like I divorce
[57:46] proofed my second marriage by writing
[57:49] this book called Committed where I spent
[57:52] three years researching the history of
[57:54] marriage, the all the sociological data
[57:58] around marriage, interviewing everybody
[57:59] that I met about marriage and then
[58:00] coalating it into this book where I was
[58:02] like now I'm divorce proof because I
[58:04] have every single piece of information
[58:05] that there is about marriage because I
[58:07] never want to go through a divorce
[58:08] again. So I'm like I'm going to just
[58:11] apply this. I'm just going to learn my
[58:12] way into safety, which is not the same
[58:15] thing as being willing to not know. You
[58:18] know, one of the things when I was going
[58:20] through withdrawal and withdrawal from
[58:22] the dream,
[58:24] right? Withdrawal from the dream, the
[58:27] fantasy that someday I'm going to get
[58:29] this thing right.
[58:31] >> Like the humility of being like, I might
[58:33] never get this thing. Like I I might not
[58:35] be here to get this thing right. This
[58:37] thing maybe can't be made right. All of
[58:39] that and the deep loneliness, the deep
[58:42] loneliness, like the searing physical
[58:45] pain of waking up in my bed in trauma,
[58:51] literally shaking and crying
[58:54] like a baby and this voice being like
[58:58] hysterical inside me being like, "This
[59:00] is not okay.
[59:03] Like, this is way too much. We need
[59:05] someone here. We can't like go get
[59:07] someone like go get someone. You know
[59:09] how to go get someone. Go get someone.
[59:10] It doesn't matter who. Like doesn't
[59:13] matter who. Just a body needs to be here
[59:14] in this bed. This is not okay. And
[59:17] sitting with myself through night after
[59:19] night of that. And calling and just
[59:21] being very unhappy and miserable and
[59:24] uncomfortable like all withdrawal and
[59:27] calling my sponsor and saying when will
[59:30] this end and what will be my reward?
[59:35] you know, like what will be my reward
[59:36] for all this discomfort and when will
[59:38] this end? And
[59:40] >> and she said, "It'll end when it ends,
[59:41] and when it ends, it won't be you who
[59:42] ended it."
[59:44] >> Um, spoken like a true, right? It'll end
[59:47] when it ends, and when it ends, it won't
[59:48] be you who ended it. And
[59:51] can you live without knowing
[59:53] >> what the reward is? Can you do, she
[59:55] said, can you do what your sober
[59:56] predecessors before you did and walk
[1:00:00] through this withdrawal without knowing
[1:00:01] what you're going to get? You who love
[1:00:04] to know. I mean, knowing is how I stay
[1:00:06] safe.
[1:00:07] >> And I found there to be something like
[1:00:10] when I when she introduced the concept
[1:00:12] of a lineage, like others before you
[1:00:15] have done this. Like others before you I
[1:00:18] don't know why that makes me just want
[1:00:20] to cry right now, but like others before
[1:00:22] you have been in this much pain. Like
[1:00:24] this pain is not original to you. And
[1:00:26] the people who were in this much pain
[1:00:28] before you found a series of actions
[1:00:31] that they could take that kept them out
[1:00:34] of extreme degradation and suffering.
[1:00:37] And
[1:00:39] can you just walk where they walked
[1:00:41] without knowing why you're even doing
[1:00:43] it? And I and I think I don't know
[1:00:46] whether my willingness to do that was a
[1:00:49] decision of my own will or if it was a
[1:00:52] gift
[1:00:54] um from the mystery to be like this kid
[1:00:58] has suffered enough like let's just put
[1:01:01] her on this path.
[1:01:02] >> Yeah.
[1:01:02] >> Like let's just make her willing to be
[1:01:04] on this path. Like maybe she's had
[1:01:06] enough of this particular kind of pain.
[1:01:10] When did the idea of of doing this
[1:01:12] extended celibacy come in?
[1:01:15] >> I didn't make a decision to be
[1:01:17] extendedly celibate. I made a decision
[1:01:21] to leave that up to God. So I don't I'm
[1:01:24] not in a celibacy experiment.
[1:01:28] God is in charge of what I do in this
[1:01:31] realm. I don't make any decisions around
[1:01:33] this realm. So for me to say I'm going
[1:01:35] to be celibate is just as ridiculous as
[1:01:38] me saying I'm going to stay faithful in
[1:01:40] this marriage or I'm like not going to
[1:01:42] be attracted to this person like I'm
[1:01:44] powerless over this.
[1:01:46] >> So what the relationship that I'm in is
[1:01:50] what's your will for me God? What is
[1:01:52] your will for me that would be of the
[1:01:55] highest use of me and service of me to
[1:02:00] this gift of life that you've given to
[1:02:01] me and to others where I would cause the
[1:02:03] least harm and be able to do the most
[1:02:05] service. And so far, you know, as of
[1:02:08] like 20 to four
[1:02:11] >> on this day, six years into my recovery
[1:02:14] program, God's been like, I want you
[1:02:16] doing just what you're doing,
[1:02:18] >> and I will notify you if that needs to
[1:02:20] change. And if that needs to change,
[1:02:22] it's not going to be your idea. It'll be
[1:02:24] my idea. But
[1:02:27] you know, actually the shorter answer is
[1:02:28] when I say to my higher power, should I
[1:02:30] be dating? God's like, lol, no.
[1:02:34] Like, uh-uh. And other people in my
[1:02:36] program do date, you know, and they date
[1:02:38] with sober dating plan. I mean, I have a
[1:02:40] sober dating plan. I've got a document
[1:02:41] in place for if that day should come.
[1:02:43] And I hope that I have the sobriety to
[1:02:46] use it if that day should come. But for
[1:02:48] now, the answer is
[1:02:50] We have so much healing to do of the
[1:02:53] It's not just that I have so much
[1:02:54] healing to do of the damage
[1:02:57] to me from 35 years of abandonment of
[1:03:00] self, degradation of body,
[1:03:04] disregard for my own well-being. Like
[1:03:07] there is so much healing to that's a
[1:03:09] long time. I was
[1:03:10] >> deep in the paint in this thing for a
[1:03:13] long time, right? So there's a lot of
[1:03:15] amends that I'm making to myself about
[1:03:18] things I'm sorry that I made myself do
[1:03:21] in order to get love, approval,
[1:03:22] validation, and acceptance. And so the
[1:03:24] amends process for me is like
[1:03:27] we're not going to do that now. Like I'm
[1:03:29] not going to I'm not going to make you
[1:03:30] go do that. Like I will take care of you
[1:03:32] so that you don't have to degrade
[1:03:35] yourself so much so that somebody else
[1:03:36] will. But there's a lot of healing I
[1:03:38] have to do with people who I harmed. And
[1:03:41] and that's been a really long process
[1:03:44] >> because the amends process is difficult
[1:03:47] when these kind of actions hurt people
[1:03:49] at such a profound level. And so there's
[1:03:51] a there's a lot of delicacy in terms of
[1:03:54] like is it even safe for them if I
[1:03:56] approach? Is this a person who ever
[1:03:58] wants to hear my name again? Like I did
[1:04:00] the worst thing to this person like do
[1:04:03] they even want to you know so there's a
[1:04:06] lot of like there's a lot of healing. I
[1:04:08] think of it as like healing a wetlands,
[1:04:09] you know? It's like
[1:04:12] these heavy metals that are in there
[1:04:13] take a long time to to get out and I
[1:04:15] don't want to rush. I don't have a
[1:04:16] deadline on that process. Like that's an
[1:04:19] open-ended process.
[1:04:21] So that's
[1:04:22] >> the amends, you know, it's a case by
[1:04:24] case thing, right? Like when is it a
[1:04:25] living amends? When is it appropriate uh
[1:04:28] and in the best interest of everybody to
[1:04:31] directly approach somebody? Like it's
[1:04:33] it's hard to know. And when those when
[1:04:36] those harms are are severe and cut deep,
[1:04:39] >> you know, sometimes it's it's better to
[1:04:40] leave them be and to just, you know,
[1:04:43] kind of uh change your behavior going
[1:04:45] forward or, you know, write a letter to
[1:04:48] them that you don't send or or, you
[1:04:50] know, just treat other people, you know,
[1:04:52] in a manner befitting your recovery.
[1:04:55] Like, it's it's it's a hard thing.
[1:04:57] >> It's really hard.
[1:04:57] >> But when it's unresolved, it also makes
[1:05:00] it more difficult to move forward and
[1:05:02] release the baggage. And so you're still
[1:05:05] >> somewhat connected to those feelings of
[1:05:08] of guilt and shame that surround it. But
[1:05:10] when you take dating off the table
[1:05:13] and you can no longer, you know, export
[1:05:15] or externalize,
[1:05:17] you know, how you feel about yourself
[1:05:19] upon, you know, the opinions of others,
[1:05:22] you're in this rare place of of solitude
[1:05:26] where you can do that work and you can
[1:05:29] begin to exercise self-care. And that
[1:05:31] gets into this really important piece
[1:05:33] around self-love, which is like
[1:05:35] something I I still like so many years
[1:05:37] later, I struggle with so deeply. It
[1:05:40] feels so cringy, the whole prospect of
[1:05:43] it all
[1:05:44] >> because deep down I still harbor all of
[1:05:46] these like negative emotions about
[1:05:48] myself that creep up and start to infect
[1:05:51] my relationships. And um there's a whole
[1:05:55] terrain that still is out there for me
[1:05:58] to, you know, travel. I try to avoid
[1:06:02] using terms self-love and self-hatred
[1:06:04] because self- loveve can feel really
[1:06:06] cringey and self-hatred is so dark and I
[1:06:09] just think of it in terms of
[1:06:10] friendliness and non-friendliness. Like
[1:06:14] the thing the way I'm speaking to myself
[1:06:17] in this I can like do a little
[1:06:18] assessment and be the way I'm speaking
[1:06:20] to myself right now isn't very friendly.
[1:06:22] It's not even about loving. It's just
[1:06:24] like this is unfriendly. Like I would
[1:06:26] never speak to a friend this way. I
[1:06:29] would never degrade a friend this way.
[1:06:31] Is this is this a friendly moment or an
[1:06:33] unfriendly moment? Do you know the story
[1:06:34] about the Daly Lama and Sharon Salsburg
[1:06:37] the meditation teacher? Have you heard
[1:06:38] the story?
[1:06:38] >> I don't think so.
[1:06:39] >> So when the Daly Lama came to the west
[1:06:43] for the first time through California
[1:06:45] and it was probably in the 70s60s I'm
[1:06:48] trying early 70s I think. I don't have
[1:06:50] the exact date but he nobody really kind
[1:06:52] of knew who he was. He wasn't this huge
[1:06:55] global figure yet. And some
[1:06:57] >> people I'm going to guess around Eselin
[1:07:00] brought him you know like in that sort
[1:07:02] of circle like people who were
[1:07:04] >> philosophers and thinkers and meditators
[1:07:07] and they had a kind of summit and they
[1:07:09] brought him and invited
[1:07:10] >> various therapists and thinking people
[1:07:13] and academics to meet this kind of
[1:07:14] obscure Tibetan monk and Sharon Salsburg
[1:07:17] the the great meditation teacher who
[1:07:18] teaches a lot about meta loving kindness
[1:07:20] meditation was in the room. She was a
[1:07:22] young meditator and she had the
[1:07:24] opportunity to ask him a question and
[1:07:26] his English was very poor at the time
[1:07:28] and she said, "What is the traditional
[1:07:31] prescribed within your lineage? What is
[1:07:35] the traditional prescribed cure or
[1:07:37] treatment for self-hatred?" And he had
[1:07:40] to talk to a translator for 15 minutes
[1:07:42] before he even understood the question.
[1:07:46] He kept thinking he was hearing it wrong
[1:07:47] because he kept saying, "Who's who's the
[1:07:49] person that you're having a conflict
[1:07:50] with?" Like he kept coming back and
[1:07:52] being like, "Who's who's your enemy?
[1:07:54] Who's the one that you're in trouble
[1:07:56] with?" And they kept saying like me. And
[1:07:58] he's like, "But that
[1:08:00] >> you're your own enemy. That doesn't even
[1:08:02] make any sense why you would be your own
[1:08:04] enemy cuz you're the only one like
[1:08:07] you're you. Why would you why would you
[1:08:09] be an enemy to you?"
[1:08:10] >> And he was bewildered by this question.
[1:08:13] And then he was even more bewildered
[1:08:15] when he sort of took a survey around the
[1:08:16] room and was like, "Does everyone have
[1:08:18] this? Like, is this a thing? like is
[1:08:20] this and everyone
[1:08:21] >> every western
[1:08:22] >> every western hand was up and he was as
[1:08:25] a person of compassion he was devastated
[1:08:28] and he said his exact quote was I used
[1:08:31] to think that I understood the mind but
[1:08:34] I find this very very disturbing he came
[1:08:37] away from that and his sort of approach
[1:08:40] toward the west was we're going to have
[1:08:42] to start with this um because this is
[1:08:46] this is not okay and this absence of a
[1:08:49] sense of just inherent your sovereign
[1:08:52] right to feel friendly toward yourself
[1:08:55] has been so violated and decimated in in
[1:08:59] this culture that we think it's natural
[1:09:01] to hate ourselves when it's actually the
[1:09:03] very very furthest thing. So it's
[1:09:08] that's where I sort of start with with
[1:09:10] people, you know, um and where I start
[1:09:13] with with myself like and the way that I
[1:09:15] see it now on a sort of cosmic level is
[1:09:17] I believe that my little soul spirit
[1:09:20] that came here to come to Earth school
[1:09:23] that God or whatever or the great
[1:09:26] mystery gave this one to me. Like I
[1:09:29] don't know totally what's going on here,
[1:09:31] but I know that I'm not you. I mean I
[1:09:32] know we're at one level we're all one.
[1:09:35] But in this duality, like you're having
[1:09:37] a totally different experience over
[1:09:38] there than I am. Like so there's a rich
[1:09:41] guy. There's he's in there and then I'm
[1:09:43] in here and I'm in here talking to you.
[1:09:45] But like this one
[1:09:47] was entrusted to me to to carry through
[1:09:51] this experience of Earth school. And I
[1:09:53] like now the way I think of it is they
[1:09:55] must have thought I could take care of
[1:09:57] it, you know, or they wouldn't have
[1:09:59] entrusted me with something as sacred as
[1:10:03] a soul.
[1:10:04] Right. So now the way I see it is like
[1:10:07] all the rage and resentment and fury
[1:10:10] that I felt at Rya and many other people
[1:10:12] where I'm like you abandoned me like you
[1:10:15] betrayed me. We had a contract you were
[1:10:18] supposed to take care of me you know and
[1:10:20] it's like good guess and a totally
[1:10:23] innocent misunderstanding like this is
[1:10:26] mine to carry through this world right
[1:10:28] and I'm just learning how to do this.
[1:10:30] I'm just learning. So, I'm just learning
[1:10:32] how to look in and be like, are you all
[1:10:35] right in there? How can I serve you?
[1:10:37] What do you need? Like, how can we I can
[1:10:41] see you're suffering. This little one is
[1:10:42] suffering in here.
[1:10:44] >> And one of when I was going through
[1:10:45] withdrawal and having those nights where
[1:10:47] that addict voice that's trying to get
[1:10:49] me what I need is like jonesing and
[1:10:52] being like, "We need to get someone
[1:10:53] here." You know what I was saying out
[1:10:55] loud in my bed. And this is I also
[1:10:58] remember having this feeling like I'm so
[1:11:00] glad I'm alone. I'm so glad I'm living
[1:11:01] alone so that I can do all this stuff
[1:11:04] that would look very weird to someone,
[1:11:06] you know, like flopping about, PTSD,
[1:11:09] shaking, talking to myself, comforting
[1:11:11] myself. I'm like, I'm actually really
[1:11:13] glad that I've got this container of
[1:11:14] this house that I live in where I'm not
[1:11:17] pulling anyone into this drama with me.
[1:11:19] I'm actually in the crucible with myself
[1:11:21] and the only people here are the ones
[1:11:23] who need to be here, which is like me
[1:11:25] and God. And I would just say out loud,
[1:11:28] I would say to her, I know, I totally
[1:11:31] know why you want that. It makes so much
[1:11:34] sense. I know I know your whole story
[1:11:36] and I know why you want me to get
[1:11:39] someone here and I know what you think
[1:11:41] you're going to get out of that and
[1:11:42] you're not wrong. Like that would
[1:11:46] actually be a fix for tonight. Like it
[1:11:49] would work. It always it always works
[1:11:51] like all drugs. It's like it would
[1:11:53] >> you just you play it out to its
[1:11:56] conclusion?
[1:11:56] >> You play the tape out and it's like and
[1:11:58] then I would just say to that part like
[1:11:59] do you remember all the other times we
[1:12:01] did that
[1:12:02] >> and do you remember
[1:12:03] >> how it always ended and it always ended
[1:12:06] worse so we're just going to not do that
[1:12:09] and I was watching this division in me
[1:12:11] like this thing was trying to run away
[1:12:13] from me and it was like I don't trust
[1:12:15] you to take care of me. I want to go
[1:12:16] find someone else. And I'm like I get
[1:12:17] why you don't trust me. You shouldn't.
[1:12:20] All I've ever done is abandon you. But
[1:12:21] like I'm it's like I'm in parenting
[1:12:23] school at the Y learning how to take
[1:12:24] care of you now. And I'm not going to
[1:12:26] always be great at it, but you are my
[1:12:28] priority now. And even if I'm not always
[1:12:30] a great mom, like I'm here
[1:12:33] >> and and I'm not going anywhere. And I'm
[1:12:35] not going to let us bring someone else
[1:12:36] in here because that actually ends up
[1:12:38] harming us. And it's okay if you don't
[1:12:40] like that. And it's okay if you feel
[1:12:42] like that's enough. And we're going to
[1:12:43] and I don't care if we're up all night
[1:12:45] doing this. Like I am not leaving you.
[1:12:47] And I think the the thing that I have
[1:12:50] always most needed to hear is I don't
[1:12:51] care if we're up all night doing this. I
[1:12:53] am not leaving you. You cannot exhaust
[1:12:55] me. You are not too much for me. And I'm
[1:12:57] the only person I now believe I'm the
[1:12:59] only person in the world who I am not
[1:13:00] too much for.
[1:13:03] >> Like because it shouldn't be anybody
[1:13:06] else's job to do that. Like that's too
[1:13:08] big a job. They have to be doing that
[1:13:09] for themselves. They've got their own
[1:13:12] like neglected abandoned kid in there
[1:13:14] who needs them who they would abandon if
[1:13:16] they tried to do that for me, right? So,
[1:13:18] it never should have been anybody else's
[1:13:20] job. But I didn't know that and I
[1:13:23] couldn't know that
[1:13:25] until I knew it. It's not dissimilar
[1:13:28] from the way again like back to
[1:13:31] creativity like the idea that you talk
[1:13:34] about like oh the negative voice the
[1:13:36] self-defeating voice like we're going on
[1:13:37] a road trip you can come but you know
[1:13:40] you got to sit over there and if you
[1:13:42] pipe up you're going in the back seat
[1:13:43] like you're not allowed to like raise
[1:13:45] your voice like I you know I love you
[1:13:46] and you know you can I'm not abandoning
[1:13:48] you like you're part of me but like
[1:13:50] there's rules right?
[1:13:51] >> Yeah. so good at setting boundaries
[1:13:54] around that. But here we are. This is
[1:13:56] the same situation. It's just that you
[1:13:58] have to cleave off a deeper part of
[1:14:02] yourself that you have a harder time
[1:14:06] disassociating with or letting go of,
[1:14:08] right?
[1:14:08] >> The wounded child that needs care that
[1:14:11] you're that you've got bottled up in
[1:14:13] here. Like the negative creative voice,
[1:14:16] that's easy for you, you know? But this
[1:14:18] is the tough one. But on some version,
[1:14:19] it's like Russian nesting dolls. Like
[1:14:21] this is just it's the same thing, right?
[1:14:23] >> Yes. That's so well put, Rich. Exactly.
[1:14:27] Exactly. And Rehea used to say there's
[1:14:30] always a I mean I think it's a common
[1:14:31] recovery phrase, but there's always a
[1:14:33] trap door under every bottom. Like just
[1:14:35] when you think you've hit rock bottom,
[1:14:36] there's a trap door and you can always
[1:14:37] go lower,
[1:14:38] >> but there's also always a ladder of
[1:14:40] ascension.
[1:14:41] >> You know, you can always evolve higher.
[1:14:44] Like you can always your soul can always
[1:14:46] be sort of more polished. And I think a
[1:14:48] lot of sort of the journey of life is
[1:14:50] like you start to get rid of the,
[1:14:54] you know, the external things that
[1:14:55] you've been using to not go to the
[1:14:57] bottom of the bottom of the bottom of
[1:14:59] the thing. And when they're all gone,
[1:15:01] then it's just you
[1:15:03] >> and the the little creature at the
[1:15:05] bottom of the hole, you know? Um, who
[1:15:07] when I met her,
[1:15:09] frankly, looked at me and had no hope. I
[1:15:12] mean, she looked at me, she had the
[1:15:13] thousand mile stare of a 10 tour of duty
[1:15:16] soldier and and I was like, "What do you
[1:15:19] need from me?" And she was like, "You
[1:15:22] will always abandon me.
[1:15:25] You will always abandon me. You'll
[1:15:26] always choose everybody else's comfort
[1:15:28] over my safety. Always. You'll always
[1:15:31] people please your way into destroying.
[1:15:34] You'll always give everything that's
[1:15:35] mine away to everyone. Like, I can't
[1:15:38] count on you for anything." And I was
[1:15:39] like, "You're right.
[1:15:41] You're right.
[1:15:43] Let me see what I can do about this.
[1:15:46] >> Let's start over.
[1:15:48] >> Like all these things though, they they
[1:15:50] track back to
[1:15:52] >> childhood wounds and traumas. Yeah.
[1:15:54] >> I'm sure you have some awareness around,
[1:15:57] you know, how this pattern originated
[1:15:59] and what locked it in. Beyond 12step,
[1:16:02] are there other healing modalities that
[1:16:04] have been helpful like internal family
[1:16:06] systems or I mean there's a you know
[1:16:08] there's a paniply of like stuff out
[1:16:10] there. Yeah, IFS has been great. Um, I
[1:16:14] would say for me the two the two
[1:16:16] modalities that I think have actually
[1:16:19] given me transformation because
[1:16:21] everything helps but I don't think
[1:16:23] helping is quite the same as having a
[1:16:24] transformative awakening experience
[1:16:27] where you feel like you're actually
[1:16:28] being changed.
[1:16:29] >> Say more about that.
[1:16:30] >> So I did talk therapy for probably two
[1:16:33] and a half decades and it was helpful
[1:16:35] like it's helpful. It was it was such a
[1:16:38] band-aid. It was so helpful to go in
[1:16:40] there and talk about my problems and
[1:16:42] have somebody compassionately listen,
[1:16:44] but I didn't stop doing those things,
[1:16:46] right? I didn't. Some people it may
[1:16:49] actually transform. So, for me, it was
[1:16:51] almost like a methodone clinic. It's
[1:16:54] like, I'm going to go get a little bit
[1:16:55] of love and connection with this person
[1:16:57] that's going to be able to keep me alive
[1:16:59] for the next week until I go get
[1:17:00] another. But I don't, you know what I
[1:17:02] mean?
[1:17:02] >> Using the therapist to like meet your
[1:17:05] addictive needs. Yeah. The
[1:17:06] >> validation. it'll be a kind of temporary
[1:17:08] mommy for me,
[1:17:09] >> you know, and comfort and understanding
[1:17:11] and then these little awakenings where
[1:17:12] it's like, oh, an epiphany, I understand
[1:17:14] more, but I would go out and do the same
[1:17:16] thing again, you know. So, the two
[1:17:18] things that I feel like are the only two
[1:17:20] things that for me have actually made me
[1:17:24] not do those two things again, those
[1:17:26] things again. One is is 12step and the
[1:17:28] other is Byron Katie's work um and self
[1:17:31] inquiry and the four questions like
[1:17:32] that,
[1:17:33] >> right? It's called the work, right?
[1:17:35] >> It's called the work. I I don't know
[1:17:36] that much about her stuff, but
[1:17:38] >> I find it to be really that it creates
[1:17:40] radical transformations of thought
[1:17:42] within my mind. It asks me to have a
[1:17:46] really open mind and to be able to sort
[1:17:48] of jiu-jitsu flip my beliefs where all
[1:17:51] of the sudden I kind of physically can't
[1:17:53] believe that anymore.
[1:17:54] >> It has something to do with basically
[1:17:56] just challenging everything you believe
[1:17:58] is true, right? Like what if it's not
[1:17:59] true? kind of releasing your attachment
[1:18:02] to Yeah.
[1:18:03] >> ideas
[1:18:05] >> and identity. Yeah. Is that right?
[1:18:06] >> So yeah, a good one would be Rehea
[1:18:08] abandoned me.
[1:18:10] >> I'm in that belief and I'm suffering
[1:18:12] enormously because I'm in that belief.
[1:18:15] So anyone would agree with it. Like
[1:18:17] anyone would have looked at her like
[1:18:19] checked out on the couch spending money
[1:18:21] on cocaine with a needle in her arm and
[1:18:23] be like, "Sure looks that way." Like I
[1:18:24] could definitely get a consensus of
[1:18:25] people to back me up on that. But but
[1:18:28] what that work would do would be to ask
[1:18:30] me to dare to have an open enough mind
[1:18:33] to I can always go back to the belief
[1:18:35] later. But would you sit in meditation
[1:18:36] and ask these four questions of this
[1:18:38] belief? And the first one is is it true?
[1:18:41] >> Mhm.
[1:18:41] >> Um that Rehea abandoned me and the
[1:18:44] answer to that can only be yes or no. So
[1:18:46] you have to really think about like is
[1:18:47] it true she abandoned me? The second
[1:18:49] question is if the first answer was yes,
[1:18:52] the next question is can you absolutely
[1:18:53] know that it's true? And that's where
[1:18:55] the ego starts to kind of like
[1:18:57] disintegrate like a slug when you put
[1:18:58] salt on it because it's like well I
[1:19:00] can't absolutely know much. You know
[1:19:02] what I mean? Like it's like it looks
[1:19:03] true, it feels true, but like is
[1:19:05] absolutely absolutely like it starts to
[1:19:07] introduce this possibility of doubt to
[1:19:09] this belief that I'm hanging my whole
[1:19:10] life on. And then the third question is
[1:19:12] how do you respond when you believe that
[1:19:14] it's true? I'm a victim. I'm enraged. I
[1:19:16] have to go find someone else to love to
[1:19:19] make up for what I lost with her. You
[1:19:21] know, I'm sick and suffering in pain.
[1:19:23] And who would I be without that belief
[1:19:25] is the fourth question. And it's like if
[1:19:26] I didn't have the belief that she
[1:19:27] abandoned me, I would be free from that
[1:19:31] rage. And then you do the the really
[1:19:33] cool jiu-jitsu part is you take the
[1:19:34] original belief and then you try to find
[1:19:38] three opposites of it and you try them
[1:19:40] on. She always says try them on like a
[1:19:42] pair of shoes and walk around in it and
[1:19:43] just see how that belief feels. So with
[1:19:45] that belief, Rehea abandoned me. An
[1:19:47] exact opposite would be I abandoned me.
[1:19:51] that actually when I try that on and
[1:19:52] walk around in it, it feels more true.
[1:19:55] >> It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. That
[1:19:56] actually kind of feels like like I did
[1:19:59] that." Like I agreed to go by all those
[1:20:01] drugs. I made you into my higher power.
[1:20:03] I enabled this or Rehea abandoned
[1:20:06] herself.
[1:20:08] Like that also feels very true. She
[1:20:10] abandoned her recovery program. She
[1:20:12] abandoned her highest ideals. She
[1:20:14] abandoned her integrity. It
[1:20:16] depersonalizes it where suddenly it's
[1:20:17] like she didn't do that at me. She was
[1:20:20] just doing it like she was just an
[1:20:21] addict having a relapse. It wasn't it
[1:20:23] wasn't personal to me. Like if I wasn't
[1:20:25] there, she'd be yelling at a tree. You
[1:20:27] know what I mean? Like she was just in
[1:20:28] her own experience. And so you start to
[1:20:30] take these beliefs and like have the
[1:20:34] >> I love an open mind.
[1:20:35] >> So that's why I think I really love that
[1:20:37] like willingness is an open mind. Yeah.
[1:20:39] >> Like when God said to me, are you
[1:20:40] willing to put this thing down and just
[1:20:42] come in with no understanding? Are you
[1:20:44] willing to be in a beginner's mind? Are
[1:20:46] you willing to be in a don't know mind?
[1:20:48] So her work helps me with my like fears
[1:20:51] and resentments throughout the day of
[1:20:54] like I've got you know because all
[1:20:56] addiction comes from fear and resentment
[1:20:59] >> and when those ideas are challenged and
[1:21:01] you feel an emotional charge obviously
[1:21:04] that's when there's something there to
[1:21:07] explore.
[1:21:07] >> Yeah. The resistance is because
[1:21:12] whatever that idea is, no matter how
[1:21:15] much it's leading you in the wrong
[1:21:16] direction, it is doing something for
[1:21:18] you. It's fulfilling some sort of need
[1:21:20] that needs to get
[1:21:21] >> understood and deconstructed and filled
[1:21:23] in a different way.
[1:21:24] >> It's crying out to be liberated, you
[1:21:28] know? That's how I see it. Because like
[1:21:30] a free mind, an open mind, a soft mind
[1:21:33] isn't getting like I'm thinking of like
[1:21:35] a snag in a river, you know, like the
[1:21:38] like a free and open mind is just sort
[1:21:39] of a river flowing and then there's like
[1:21:42] a bend and like a giant log sort of just
[1:21:44] gets snagged and then like all the other
[1:21:47] logs start I mean we've seen it so many
[1:21:48] times in nature. It's just like just
[1:21:50] hooked on that thing. And so those like
[1:21:53] deep endemic beliefs, those self-hating,
[1:21:57] self-abandoning, betraying beliefs are
[1:21:59] like these snags that I just keep
[1:22:00] getting caught on. And once I'm caught
[1:22:02] on them, I have no choice but to act out
[1:22:04] the way I act out. Like if I'm trapped
[1:22:06] in this belief of Rehea abandon me, I
[1:22:08] have to go find someone who's not going
[1:22:09] to abandon me.
[1:22:10] >> Like I have to like if I if I believe
[1:22:13] that, like I have no choice. And of
[1:22:15] course I'm going to go do that. And if I
[1:22:17] retreat to wait, oh, I abandoned me now.
[1:22:20] I like I love the one of the definitions
[1:22:22] I love of sobriety is sobbriety is the
[1:22:23] restoration of choice because addicts
[1:22:26] have no choices. It's like you've got to
[1:22:27] do this thing. You're so compelled.
[1:22:29] >> So it's like well now I actually have a
[1:22:31] little bit of space where I can decide
[1:22:33] how would I like to respond here.
[1:22:36] >> I mean that's a good way of putting
[1:22:38] words to to the fear that a lot of
[1:22:42] people have around 12step recovery which
[1:22:45] is this idea of surrendering to a higher
[1:22:47] power. this notion that you're you're
[1:22:49] giving up that you're relinquishing any
[1:22:52] agency over your life. It's a very, you
[1:22:54] know, confronting, threatening prospect
[1:22:57] that that
[1:23:00] is shortsighted in that it doesn't it
[1:23:02] doesn't fully comprehend the the
[1:23:05] liberation uh that that occurs when you
[1:23:08] kind of let go of all these attachments
[1:23:10] and and and turn it over and really
[1:23:13] develop this spiritual connection. I
[1:23:16] mean truly like that is you know this is
[1:23:18] the you get your diploma in earth school
[1:23:20] when when you realize that there is
[1:23:22] nothing there is nothing more important
[1:23:24] than your divine connection like it's
[1:23:26] really that's it right and we struggle
[1:23:29] so much and try to figure that out in
[1:23:32] all these material ways that lead us
[1:23:34] astray when all we want to do is kind of
[1:23:36] go home right and it's so hard for us
[1:23:39] you know and I fight it too we try to
[1:23:42] make so many other things our home
[1:23:43] >> it's like my surrender's conditional
[1:23:45] like Yes, but like I'm still I still
[1:23:47] need to like you know over here is where
[1:23:49] like I'm in control of this
[1:23:51] >> and the idea of of relinquishing control
[1:23:54] like that that notion that maybe you're
[1:23:57] not in control like
[1:24:00] that's where all the juice is like
[1:24:02] that's when you open the portal to all
[1:24:04] the good stuff and it's so difficult to
[1:24:07] make that leap though
[1:24:09] >> there's a line in the book I actually
[1:24:10] did a little illustration of it that you
[1:24:13] don't want to surrender because you're
[1:24:14] afraid of losing in control, but you
[1:24:16] never had control. All you had was
[1:24:18] anxiety. All you had was anxiety. You
[1:24:22] know, there's the other line that says
[1:24:23] like when you give up control, you're
[1:24:24] giving up something you never had in the
[1:24:25] first place. Like you're just giving up
[1:24:27] this this dream of this thing that you
[1:24:28] never had. When I work with sponses and
[1:24:31] they're having trouble with steps two
[1:24:33] and three, which are the, you know, made
[1:24:35] this decision to turn our will in our
[1:24:36] life over to the care of a higher power
[1:24:38] and came to believe a power greater than
[1:24:39] ourselves. those those ones especially
[1:24:41] people who have a lot of religious
[1:24:42] trauma which I'm extremely sympathetic
[1:24:45] to
[1:24:46] >> where those concepts can feel really
[1:24:47] really super threatening. One of the
[1:24:49] things that I I invite them to do is
[1:24:50] that they get to write
[1:24:52] >> um I asked them to write an essay to
[1:24:54] they get to create it's like a
[1:24:56] Build-A-Bear. You get to create your own
[1:24:58] higher power. So write down what the
[1:25:01] qualities it's almost like the qualities
[1:25:03] you would want in a partner. What are
[1:25:04] the qualities that you would have to
[1:25:06] have in a higher power to surrender to
[1:25:08] them? Like because it's not going to be
[1:25:11] to the God. You can't surrender to the
[1:25:13] God you were taught is judging and
[1:25:16] hating you. Like you already hate
[1:25:18] yourself. Like you already hate yourself
[1:25:20] so much. You already judge yourself so
[1:25:22] much. Like that's not going to feel
[1:25:23] good. So I'm like just you get to create
[1:25:25] your own HP. Let's go. And they're like
[1:25:28] you can't do that, can you? I'm like
[1:25:30] totally you can. And why would a loving
[1:25:33] mysterious god not take whatever form it
[1:25:35] needed to take for you to find it?
[1:25:37] Right. So, it's interesting because
[1:25:39] usually the first thing they have on the
[1:25:40] list is unconditionally loving,
[1:25:43] especially love addicts. You know, it's
[1:25:45] like I need a higher power who thinks
[1:25:47] I'm absolutely perfect as this wreckage
[1:25:49] that I am right now. Like, that's where
[1:25:52] it's got to start. Like, I can't have a
[1:25:54] god coming in here and shaming me.
[1:25:55] >> Yeah.
[1:25:56] >> I can't. The other idea that's helpful
[1:25:59] for people that come in with with that
[1:26:02] kind of baggage and resistance to any
[1:26:04] anything spiritual in any regard because
[1:26:07] of their religious background or
[1:26:08] whatever. Um is to just say kind of what
[1:26:11] you said earlier which is there's wisdom
[1:26:13] in these rooms. Like a lot of people
[1:26:15] have faced and overcome things that
[1:26:18] you're struggling with right now. And
[1:26:22] one of the choices you can make is just
[1:26:23] to make the group consciousness your
[1:26:25] higher power. And that is that is a
[1:26:27] higher power at work, you know,
[1:26:29] certainly being channeled through those
[1:26:30] people and it just grounds it and makes
[1:26:32] it a little bit easier to make that
[1:26:34] leap.
[1:26:35] >> Yeah, I love that. The group that's the
[1:26:37] god equals group of drunks. Isn't that
[1:26:39] what they say?
[1:26:40] >> Um that you make that your god, the
[1:26:42] crew. I also love there's a a couple
[1:26:46] questions I've heard which is like can
[1:26:48] you imagine and it's just a hypothetical
[1:26:51] that there might be an intelligence in
[1:26:52] the universe greater than yours and you
[1:26:54] don't have to know what it is but like
[1:26:57] even looking at like the ocean tides
[1:27:00] >> like I'm not doing that
[1:27:02] like and it's a very intelligent system
[1:27:05] the way it's working there's like a
[1:27:06] beauty and an order that's that might be
[1:27:09] smarter than me like it might be like
[1:27:11] could it be or is my brain
[1:27:13] the highest intelligence in the
[1:27:15] universe, which doesn't even make sense,
[1:27:16] especially looking at how badly I've
[1:27:18] done managing my life, right? Like, you
[1:27:20] can just take that as an example. Like,
[1:27:21] if I'm so smart, why why do I keep
[1:27:25] driving myself over a cliff? Right? So,
[1:27:28] could it be possible that there's an
[1:27:29] intelligence in the universe? And you
[1:27:31] don't even have to name what it is or
[1:27:32] know what it is. Then the second
[1:27:33] question is if the answer to that is yes
[1:27:35] and if it's possible could it be
[1:27:37] possible that it cares about you that
[1:27:40] you're part of it like you were created
[1:27:42] unto this and if it's possible you don't
[1:27:45] have to know but is it possible
[1:27:47] >> and then third question is if it's
[1:27:49] possible that it cares about you can you
[1:27:50] imagine a possibility that it might want
[1:27:52] to be in communion with you which brings
[1:27:55] us back to creativity and this idea of
[1:27:57] like ideas in the ether that want to be
[1:27:59] in communion with you and is it possible
[1:28:02] that It's trying to communicate with you
[1:28:04] and that if you ask it to communicate
[1:28:06] with you, it will. And if you ask it to
[1:28:09] help you, it will.
[1:28:12] Is it possible? Or are we going to stick
[1:28:14] with your brain is the highest
[1:28:16] intelligence in the universe?
[1:28:18] >> And it's got all the answers as
[1:28:20] evidenced by the wreckage of your life.
[1:28:24] >> Pete Holmes has a pretty funny bit about
[1:28:26] this. Have you heard this one where he
[1:28:28] talks about nothing? You know, like you
[1:28:30] ask people what happens when you die and
[1:28:32] nothing. Nothing happens. And and
[1:28:34] reconciling that with the idea that, you
[1:28:36] know, before the Big Bang there was
[1:28:38] nothing, you know. So if it's nothing,
[1:28:40] well then that's God. You're just
[1:28:41] calling it nothing. It's some, you know,
[1:28:43] like I mean obviously he does it in a
[1:28:45] brilliant, you know, way that's
[1:28:47] hilarious or whatever. But
[1:28:49] >> it's like a mental like gymnastics to
[1:28:52] like get around the language. And Rob
[1:28:54] Bell has said beautifully, you don't
[1:28:57] have to call it God, but that doesn't
[1:28:58] solve the problem
[1:29:00] of what the hell is going on.
[1:29:02] >> What Liz, what is going on?
[1:29:04] >> Like what is going on? Earth school. I
[1:29:06] think
[1:29:07] >> I'm taking this off.
[1:29:08] >> I mean, I think that's what's going on.
[1:29:09] I think Earth school is going on. And
[1:29:11] when you look around what we've been
[1:29:13] able to see yet of the universe, it
[1:29:15] doesn't appear there's anything else
[1:29:17] that we found yet that's like this.
[1:29:18] Something very special is going on here.
[1:29:21] This is a very this is a very special
[1:29:23] place this planet and consciousness
[1:29:25] seems to be a very special thing and the
[1:29:28] Buddhists say that the it's a very
[1:29:30] precious thing to have a human life even
[1:29:31] with all of its suffering and it's I
[1:29:33] didn't have not always felt that way
[1:29:36] >> I've often felt like check please
[1:29:38] >> I don't care for it no thank you zero
[1:29:39] out of five stars you know but you know
[1:29:41] the Buddhists say like the your chances
[1:29:44] of being born in human form and having
[1:29:47] the opportunity to have this spiritual
[1:29:50] experience on life. They're so glancing
[1:29:52] slim. They're like, it's the same as the
[1:29:54] chance of a turtle that lives at the
[1:29:56] bottom of the ocean that only comes to
[1:29:58] the top of the ocean once every hundred
[1:29:59] years coming to the top of the ocean for
[1:30:01] a moment and its head coming up in a
[1:30:04] ring that's floating on the ocean. Like
[1:30:06] those are the odds, which actually
[1:30:08] biologically is true when you look at
[1:30:10] sperms and eggs. It's like the odds of
[1:30:12] the that one
[1:30:14] >> like inseminating event are so like what
[1:30:19] are the they're like astronomical, you
[1:30:21] know, and and so
[1:30:23] you're being offered and invited but not
[1:30:27] forced
[1:30:29] to have an interesting experience here
[1:30:31] and show up for it. Like let's show up
[1:30:34] for it and see what happens next.
[1:30:40] One of the things that you talk about is
[1:30:42] is
[1:30:44] this
[1:30:46] idea of like purpose anxiety, right?
[1:30:49] Because when you when you talk about
[1:30:50] that
[1:30:51] >> preciousness,
[1:30:53] >> then that trickles down into, okay, I'm
[1:30:56] here, you know, I have a certain amount
[1:30:57] of time.
[1:30:58] >> Um, what am I going to do with it? Let's
[1:31:00] get to work. And there's there is a
[1:31:04] cultural
[1:31:06] pressure out there that I think really
[1:31:09] makes people feel lousy about themselves
[1:31:12] where they feel like they have to like
[1:31:14] what is my purpose? What is my thing?
[1:31:16] Like I'm falling behind. I don't have
[1:31:18] it. I don't know what it is. So I'm less
[1:31:20] than as a result. Um because the more
[1:31:24] you talk about how precious this life
[1:31:26] is, I think that that can like turn the
[1:31:28] volume up on that feeling of of like,
[1:31:32] well, how do I fit in here? And am I
[1:31:34] anything if I'm not special in this
[1:31:37] particular way?
[1:31:39] >> Yeah. Americans can
[1:31:42] contaminate anything.
[1:31:44] >> Yeah.
[1:31:44] >> It's like we took preciousness and
[1:31:46] turned it into purpose theology. like
[1:31:49] you have to earn that preciousness by
[1:31:52] achieving something you know or or
[1:31:55] leaving an impact or changing the world.
[1:31:57] The problem with that, and again I think
[1:31:59] there's an innocence in that belief, but
[1:32:01] one of the problems with that is like
[1:32:02] when do you know you've done that
[1:32:04] enough, right? Especially in a culture
[1:32:06] where nothing is ever enough. Because
[1:32:08] you and I both know people who are
[1:32:11] appear to be at the very top of that
[1:32:13] purpose game.
[1:32:15] And when you're in their company, you're
[1:32:16] like, "This person's not well." You
[1:32:19] know, like you can feel that they're not
[1:32:20] well. And they're nailing it. like
[1:32:23] they're just extremely anxious in a much
[1:32:25] nicer house than I will ever have. You
[1:32:26] know, it's not work. It's not even
[1:32:28] working. That purpose-driven thing
[1:32:30] doesn't even seem to be working for the
[1:32:32] people that it's working for. And the
[1:32:34] anxiety is not gone, you know, despite
[1:32:37] the tremendous accomplishments. Like
[1:32:39] people with tremendous accomplishments
[1:32:41] kill themselves all the time. So do
[1:32:43] people with no accomplishments. So it's
[1:32:45] not it's not that that kills you. It's
[1:32:47] just that it doesn't seem to answer that
[1:32:49] deeper question. And you know, there's a
[1:32:52] story that I think we've all been told
[1:32:53] in a million commencement addresses
[1:32:55] about this idea that you've got this
[1:32:57] unique spark offering and it's your one
[1:33:00] job to figure out what it is and then
[1:33:01] you've got to monetize it
[1:33:02] >> and then you've got to bring it to other
[1:33:05] people and you've got to have a legacy.
[1:33:07] Like you've got to be remembered after
[1:33:08] you, you know, all of this to me just
[1:33:10] sounds like the fears of the ego. Like
[1:33:12] am I important? Am I special? Did I earn
[1:33:16] my right to be here? Did I waste my
[1:33:18] time? Should I have done more? or did I
[1:33:20] save enough lives? Did I leave a long
[1:33:22] enough legacy? Did I make enough of an
[1:33:24] impact? You know, all of this is like
[1:33:25] ego, ego, ego, ego, ego. Whereas the
[1:33:28] preciousness that I feel like I'm
[1:33:30] speaking about doesn't need any of that.
[1:33:33] It just is. It's intrinsically precious.
[1:33:38] It is sovereign in its preciousness. It
[1:33:40] is precious. Whether you're living under
[1:33:42] a bridge wearing a garbage bag and
[1:33:46] screaming at people when they walk by or
[1:33:49] like running the world, it there's
[1:33:52] something happening that is
[1:33:54] extraordinary, which is that you're
[1:33:56] here. And so the thing that I'm always
[1:34:00] when I teach like I ask people to forget
[1:34:04] about purpose like when I teach
[1:34:06] workshops, I'm like, I hope you didn't
[1:34:07] come here to find your purpose cuz I'm
[1:34:08] not going to help you. I'm not going to
[1:34:10] help you because I actually want to help
[1:34:11] you kind of let that go and see if you
[1:34:14] can replace it with presence
[1:34:16] which I think is just an awareness of
[1:34:20] awareness like I have no idea what's
[1:34:23] going on here but it's objectively very
[1:34:26] interesting you know um and even the
[1:34:29] really horrible worst moments are
[1:34:32] objectively interesting I mean even when
[1:34:34] Rya was diagnosed I remember there was
[1:34:36] this tiny little awakened part of my
[1:34:38] mind that was like and I put it away
[1:34:41] really quickly but there was a
[1:34:42] recognition where I was like this is
[1:34:44] interesting like this is the person who
[1:34:46] I can't live without this is a one
[1:34:48] person like if if God had come to me and
[1:34:50] said
[1:34:52] I'd be like you can take all the rest of
[1:34:54] them
[1:34:54] >> like all of them they can all come they
[1:34:56] can all go you know like this is the one
[1:34:59] that you can't take
[1:35:01] this is the one that you can't take this
[1:35:03] is the one that I can't live without and
[1:35:04] they're like okay we're going to take
[1:35:05] that one and Even in the grief there was
[1:35:09] this teeny little thing was like that's
[1:35:11] interesting like that is really
[1:35:13] objectively interesting like oh because
[1:35:16] lots of times you think you have your
[1:35:18] purpose and then life will teach you
[1:35:21] otherwise like my purpose is to be this
[1:35:23] tremendous parent
[1:35:24] >> like I'm going to be this great parent
[1:35:26] and and then
[1:35:28] you fail like you have a child who what
[1:35:32] Ra Bell always goes everyone's got that
[1:35:34] one kid you know it's like you got one
[1:35:37] that it worked with and then you've got
[1:35:38] one that it just doesn't work with and
[1:35:41] and then maybe they spend their entire
[1:35:43] life estranged from you and maybe they
[1:35:44] spend their entire life blaming you and
[1:35:46] you're like well this is interesting
[1:35:47] because I totally thought like so much
[1:35:50] of my life is things where I'm like I
[1:35:51] thought I was going to be good at this
[1:35:53] you know I thought it was my purpose to
[1:35:54] do this and maybe it wasn't you know and
[1:35:58] Leonard Cohen has a beautiful beautiful
[1:36:00] line in a documentary about him where he
[1:36:02] said you know one of the great
[1:36:04] sufferings that we often have is this
[1:36:06] feeling that there was some mission that
[1:36:08] we were supposed to do and we failed at
[1:36:11] it. And he said, "But maybe," and he
[1:36:13] then went and lived in a monastery for a
[1:36:15] ton of time and meditated on it until he
[1:36:17] came away with like, "But what if
[1:36:19] there's a deeper mission, which is to
[1:36:21] fail at it?"
[1:36:23] >> And what if it was never yours? You
[1:36:26] know, you took on the mantle and the
[1:36:28] assignment that this is what you're here
[1:36:29] for. And and the sort of punchline is
[1:36:34] apparently not, right? Like apparently
[1:36:37] not. And what if just sitting in your
[1:36:40] shared humanity of the wreckage of your
[1:36:44] expectation is actually the portal to
[1:36:49] joining us here in our shared humanity.
[1:36:53] Like welcome to your family. Here we
[1:36:55] are.
[1:36:55] >> Mhm.
[1:36:56] >> Like we all thought we were supposed to
[1:36:57] do something,
[1:36:58] >> you know? And like
[1:37:00] >> even now like we're supposed to save the
[1:37:01] planet. Like maybe not. I don't know.
[1:37:04] Like I can't I'm like I don't know and I
[1:37:07] feel like we're failing at it but like
[1:37:09] are we supposed to do like I don't know.
[1:37:12] So just being present to whatever is
[1:37:16] there's a line I love that Byron Katy
[1:37:17] says whenever I argue against reality I
[1:37:19] lose but only always. Um, so a lot of my
[1:37:23] purpose anxiety in the world is about
[1:37:25] like I want to imprint myself on the
[1:37:27] world in this particular way and reality
[1:37:29] is like no
[1:37:33] >> I share that. I share that. I mean first
[1:37:34] of all you know that's beautiful what
[1:37:37] you just shared and I think highly uh
[1:37:40] advisable and actionable in this moment
[1:37:42] that we're experiencing. Like it's
[1:37:44] there's a lot of crazy [ __ ] going on
[1:37:45] right there. It's very easy to get
[1:37:47] disregulated or caught up in your
[1:37:48] opinions or inflamed
[1:37:51] uh you know around your attachment to
[1:37:53] certain ideas and it feels like that is
[1:37:56] a pathway to equinimity and and
[1:38:00] compassion for yourself and other
[1:38:01] people. And I think that we need that
[1:38:03] right now. You know, in my Earth school
[1:38:06] classroom at the moment, like you know,
[1:38:08] all of what you said is like kind of
[1:38:09] coming up for me right now. Like I I
[1:38:11] just had this serious spinal surgery
[1:38:14] about five weeks ago
[1:38:17] and I'm being forced to, you know, stop
[1:38:21] and slow down and just be with myself.
[1:38:25] And it's sort of like COVID lockdown
[1:38:27] except with with physical pain and, you
[1:38:30] know, not being able to move your body.
[1:38:31] Like I'm here at work, it's fine, but
[1:38:33] but not being able to kind of do the
[1:38:36] things that make you feel like yourself.
[1:38:38] And I'm very good at like outrunning
[1:38:40] anything that makes me feel
[1:38:41] uncomfortable and hiding in my work or
[1:38:43] just, you know, kind of escaping. Like I
[1:38:45] like what I do and it's and my life is
[1:38:47] good. Like there's not like any kind of
[1:38:49] chaos happening or or huge problems, but
[1:38:52] I do have a lot of self-awareness around
[1:38:55] this need to like be seen and validated.
[1:38:58] um that's driven by this notion that
[1:39:02] love is transactional and needs to be
[1:39:04] earned through achievement and you know
[1:39:08] approval and accolades and all that kind
[1:39:10] of stuff and obviously that's a hydonic
[1:39:12] treadmill that leads nowhere and
[1:39:14] >> I don't want to you know be a victim of
[1:39:16] this st's dilemma
[1:39:19] >> the solution to it is
[1:39:21] >> being with myself and not being able to
[1:39:23] move or escape you know this discomfort
[1:39:26] but to actually sit with it and
[1:39:28] cultivate, you know, this presence with
[1:39:31] that discomfort as a as a teaching tool
[1:39:34] to like learn a different way to let go
[1:39:37] to realize like
[1:39:39] >> whatever attachment I have to the
[1:39:42] meaning of who I am or what I do or this
[1:39:45] notion of purpose like it's all these
[1:39:47] are just constructs. Yeah. you know,
[1:39:49] that we create and adorn with meaning
[1:39:51] that create more suffering. And and for
[1:39:55] as much as you know my behavior traits
[1:39:58] have led me to a certain privileged
[1:40:00] place in the world, they are also the
[1:40:03] Achilles heels that are in the way, you
[1:40:05] know, obstructing, you know, my
[1:40:07] connection with a higher consciousness
[1:40:09] and a deeper sense of meaning and
[1:40:11] greater connection with other people and
[1:40:13] more intimacy and all these other things
[1:40:15] that
[1:40:16] >> I sort of
[1:40:17] >> am too quick to kind of shove aside as
[1:40:21] optional and I'll get to it And you know
[1:40:23] I have more time. But now you know what
[1:40:26] I mean. So this is
[1:40:27] >> Was that you needed more time?
[1:40:28] >> Yeah. You know what I mean?
[1:40:30] >> Done and done. Let's let's ground him.
[1:40:32] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:40:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. You're being held in from
[1:40:35] recess,
[1:40:36] >> right?
[1:40:38] >> School. Like you're not allowed to go
[1:40:39] out there on the playground.
[1:40:40] >> I can't. Yeah. I can't I can come out
[1:40:41] and talk to you, but then I need to go
[1:40:43] back and think about what you just
[1:40:45] shared with me. There's a Bawin line I
[1:40:48] think that says the only thing that
[1:40:49] belongs to you is anything that cannot
[1:40:52] be this is interesting to say in
[1:40:54] California at this moment but anything
[1:40:55] that cannot be burned in a fire lost in
[1:40:58] a shipwreck or stolen by pirates and
[1:41:02] that doesn't leave much you know
[1:41:04] including your own body
[1:41:06] so
[1:41:08] what belongs to us I think is actually
[1:41:10] like if we start to what does belong to
[1:41:13] you then also I think is the answer to
[1:41:15] like What are you? Which I think is also
[1:41:17] the answer to what is God.
[1:41:19] >> It's like the thing that cannot be lost
[1:41:21] in a shipwreck. The thing that cannot be
[1:41:23] burned by fire, the thing that cannot be
[1:41:25] stolen by a pirate. What what is that
[1:41:27] thing? And the the Ramana Maharashi used
[1:41:30] to tell his students, the great Indian
[1:41:33] sage and teacher, he was like, there's
[1:41:35] two questions. Doesn't matter which one
[1:41:37] you use. He he was just like, "Your
[1:41:38] choice, dealer's choice. I have the
[1:41:41] solution for you. It's just in you get
[1:41:44] to pick. You either spend your life
[1:41:46] meditating on who is God or you spend
[1:41:48] your life meditating on who am I and
[1:41:51] just sit and keep asking that question.
[1:41:54] Either one of them will get you to the
[1:41:56] same place. It doesn't matter which way.
[1:41:58] It's like both paths lead to each other.
[1:42:00] You're going to bump into God by asking
[1:42:02] who am I? And you're going to bump into
[1:42:04] yourself by asking who is God? And
[1:42:07] that's the thing that that's all you
[1:42:09] have like really I think. I think and I
[1:42:14] think the reason I feel like I know that
[1:42:15] to be true is when I remember that my
[1:42:18] whole nervous system is like oh thank
[1:42:20] god like
[1:42:21] >> are you able are you able to like
[1:42:22] >> thank God I don't have to go then I
[1:42:24] don't have to go hustle then I'll go and
[1:42:26] hustle till I forget.
[1:42:27] >> Can you marinate in that consciousness
[1:42:28] and you know kind of stay present with
[1:42:30] it throughout the day or do you just
[1:42:32] have fleeting glimpses of that that or
[1:42:35] is it like a practice to always try to
[1:42:37] return to that place?
[1:42:39] >> I couldn't for a long time because my
[1:42:40] shame was in the way. I think that was
[1:42:42] the biggest thing like I couldn't sit
[1:42:47] still because I was in so much shame and
[1:42:50] um like so anytime I tried to sit still
[1:42:52] and meditate all I felt was shame
[1:42:54] including shame that I can't sit still
[1:42:56] and meditate but but then below that
[1:42:58] like multiple subb
[1:43:01] like my mind would just come out with a
[1:43:03] parade of horrors of like all my
[1:43:04] shortcomings and and failures and
[1:43:07] disasters and you're garbage person and
[1:43:10] a fraud and You know, I mean, like just
[1:43:12] it was it like it would feel like hell
[1:43:14] to me to sit quietly. And I think 12step
[1:43:19] really has made it easier for me to
[1:43:22] meditate because I'm sort of like at
[1:43:24] this point with the transparency that
[1:43:26] comes in recovery. It's like, bring me
[1:43:29] one of those things, those horrors that
[1:43:31] I did.
[1:43:32] >> Let me take it out of the subb, bring it
[1:43:35] to the room, tell a bunch of people
[1:43:37] about it. You know, like one of my
[1:43:39] friends and I in the room, like one of
[1:43:40] our rules is once a week we call each
[1:43:41] other and we're like, "This is the thing
[1:43:42] I don't want anyone to know about me
[1:43:44] today." So I was like, "Let's take this
[1:43:46] thing out, show it to someone, like let
[1:43:49] them sit in a loving presence for me
[1:43:51] while I reveal this. The world doesn't
[1:43:52] explode because they now know this
[1:43:55] awful, shameful thing, and then I'm
[1:43:57] going to show it to God." And God's
[1:43:58] like, "I know.
[1:44:01] >> You're not telling me anything new." And
[1:44:03] then and then I'm going to take it to my
[1:44:04] sponsor and it's like did I do did I do
[1:44:08] something that was horrible? Like did I
[1:44:10] do something that was wrong? Did I do
[1:44:12] something that was hurtful?
[1:44:14] Did I do something that I need to
[1:44:17] immediately fix and not manage but like
[1:44:22] take accountability for. So instead of
[1:44:24] just stewing in this constant,
[1:44:26] >> you know, like half of Eat, Pray, Love
[1:44:27] in the India section is just me
[1:44:29] describing how much I hated meditating
[1:44:30] cuz I was suffering like I was just, it
[1:44:33] was just like watching the worst movie
[1:44:34] in the entire world. It's like a life
[1:44:36] review in heaven where your life is
[1:44:38] awful and it's all your fault, you know,
[1:44:40] and it's like here's another thing you
[1:44:41] did. Here's another thing you did. You
[1:44:43] know, it was horrible. But now I'm like,
[1:44:45] "Oh, there's a thing I did." And then
[1:44:46] I'm like, "Oh, you're right. I did do
[1:44:48] that." Like that's kind of the way to
[1:44:50] defeat that shame. It's like when the
[1:44:51] devil comes knocking you, invite them in
[1:44:52] for tea. What's your worst? Like, show
[1:44:54] me the worst thing I did. I'm like, wow,
[1:44:55] I acknowledge that I did that. I'm going
[1:44:57] to share that thing that I did with
[1:44:59] somebody. Then I'm going to take it to
[1:45:00] my sponsor and be like, how do I how do
[1:45:02] I make an amends for this? And then that
[1:45:05] thing doesn't have any power over me
[1:45:06] anymore. So, just doing that like so
[1:45:09] steadily over the last six years. Like,
[1:45:11] like I just wrote an amends letter
[1:45:13] yesterday to somebody that I harmed like
[1:45:16] 35 years ago that's like in one of my
[1:45:18] subb. And I'm like, I think it's time to
[1:45:21] reach out to this person. And it's like
[1:45:23] a long ongoing process. So the more of
[1:45:26] those I do, the less power that
[1:45:29] awfulness has over me. And then I can
[1:45:31] sit for a really long time and just be.
[1:45:34] And when I do that and I get really
[1:45:36] quiet and I sit there for a long time,
[1:45:38] what I hear is, "I love you. I love you.
[1:45:40] I love you." That's all I hear. Which is
[1:45:42] all I've ever wanted to hear.
[1:45:44] >> Which is what I was doing all of this
[1:45:46] out here to try to get people to say,
[1:45:48] >> right? But you're you're getting the
[1:45:49] real the real [ __ ]
[1:45:50] >> I'm getting the from the well that
[1:45:52] doesn't run dry.
[1:45:52] >> Yeah.
[1:45:53] >> Yeah.
[1:45:54] >> Rehea was modeling that level of
[1:45:56] truthfulness all along. Like it's sort
[1:45:58] of breadcrumbs there, right? Like that
[1:46:01] was something that was very attractive
[1:46:03] about her. Like just her past didn't own
[1:46:06] her.
[1:46:06] >> Yeah.
[1:46:06] >> Because she had learned in the rooms
[1:46:08] that like honesty will set you free.
[1:46:11] Like the the idea that by sharing with
[1:46:14] another another person, you know, in the
[1:46:16] construct of of 12step or or otherwise,
[1:46:19] like there is a freedom that comes with
[1:46:21] that where that thing that you've pushed
[1:46:24] down and are so afraid to share and feel
[1:46:26] like if you shared it, the world is
[1:46:27] going to collapse because the world is
[1:46:29] not a safe place. And you're a hyper
[1:46:31] vigilant person and you're scanning the
[1:46:32] room and you know where everybody is.
[1:46:35] >> God, nobody moves, nobody gets hurt,
[1:46:36] >> nobody, God forbid, they know this,
[1:46:38] right? Right?
[1:46:39] >> And then you find out like, oh
[1:46:41] >> nobody cares and actually other people
[1:46:44] relate to this and all of that energy
[1:46:46] and shame and guilt was for what?
[1:46:49] >> Yeah. And it's the contrary action
[1:46:51] because you know one of the lines that I
[1:46:54] say in the book is that there's this
[1:46:57] series of famous letters between Bill W.
[1:46:59] um the founder of AA and Carl Young. Um,
[1:47:03] and in it, one of the things that Carl
[1:47:04] Young says is like, you know, the hunger
[1:47:07] for alcohol is a sort of low-level
[1:47:08] spiritual hunger. What what's what it's
[1:47:12] sort of semi-adequately doing is giving
[1:47:15] a person a sense of a connection with
[1:47:16] the divine probably because the shame
[1:47:19] drops away, right? It's like I don't
[1:47:21] have to think. I don't have to know who
[1:47:23] I am anymore. I can check out and now I
[1:47:25] actually feel good because I'm not, you
[1:47:27] know, until the until the shame the next
[1:47:29] day is even worse, right? But but he
[1:47:31] said without a connection to the divine
[1:47:33] the average person cannot resist. I
[1:47:35] think his exact line was like what the
[1:47:36] medieval people rightfully called the
[1:47:38] devil. And I find that line like really
[1:47:41] interesting. And one of the things that
[1:47:43] I said in the book is like if Satan
[1:47:46] existed, and I didn't grow up with a
[1:47:49] Satan concept, so that doesn't mean a
[1:47:50] lot to me, but like if Satan existed, he
[1:47:53] could scarcely do better in terms of
[1:47:55] like creating misery than to talk inside
[1:48:00] your mind and feed you this like ticker
[1:48:03] tape of you're the worst, you suck, it's
[1:48:07] all your fault, if anyone knows this,
[1:48:10] they'll hate you. You are uniquely
[1:48:12] [ __ ] You are like uniquely broken.
[1:48:16] Nobody will ever be able to understand
[1:48:17] you. You deserve relief. You deserve
[1:48:20] relief from this. You should go get
[1:48:22] relief by any means. You deserve to get
[1:48:24] relief by any means necessary. And don't
[1:48:26] tell anyone I said this. Like the big
[1:48:28] thing is don't tell anyone I said this.
[1:48:30] Like this must be kept in a chamber of
[1:48:32] secret. So I'm going to torment you from
[1:48:33] within, but you're not allowed to say
[1:48:35] that I exist, you know? And so the the
[1:48:38] counteraction to that and I think why
[1:48:40] 12step for all its faults and it's not
[1:48:43] for everyone works so well is because
[1:48:45] it's like oh that's what we're going to
[1:48:47] lead with.
[1:48:49] >> You're going to raise your hand and be
[1:48:50] like here's what I did you know like
[1:48:53] here's what you know and in what I found
[1:48:55] what I love about the rooms and I know
[1:48:56] you get this is like the laughter.
[1:48:58] >> Yeah. Everybody loves it. Like instead
[1:48:59] of it being like this horrible thing,
[1:49:01] everyone's like, "Hi, yeah, me too." And
[1:49:03] then I had a good idea, you know, and
[1:49:05] all of a sudden it's like the power is
[1:49:07] >> it's connection. People the facts of our
[1:49:10] experience are different, but there's
[1:49:12] the shared emotional veillance of it
[1:49:15] all. So even though somebody's telling a
[1:49:17] crazy story, it's like very different
[1:49:18] from your story, but you're like, I know
[1:49:20] what that feels like.
[1:49:21] >> Yeah.
[1:49:22] >> I have my version of that in my life.
[1:49:24] And so
[1:49:25] >> things are funnier than they actually
[1:49:26] are because of that. You're like, I know
[1:49:29] this. Yeah.
[1:49:30] >> You know,
[1:49:30] >> it's so comforting, right? And you're
[1:49:33] right. Rehea had that and she was great
[1:49:34] at it. And that was what was so
[1:49:36] beautiful to me because I was doing like
[1:49:39] every word of my mouth was a press
[1:49:41] release, you know? It's like I've got to
[1:49:43] like get the wording on this right, you
[1:49:46] know, so that like people don't set on
[1:49:48] set upon me with pitchforks and flame,
[1:49:50] you know? It's like stay safe, stay
[1:49:52] safe, stay safe, stay safe. Like that
[1:49:54] was the the drum beat. She was just
[1:49:55] like,
[1:49:57] let's just throw it out there.
[1:49:58] >> But the flip side of the I'm a piece of
[1:50:00] [ __ ] consciousness is to be able to
[1:50:03] simultaneously also believe that you're
[1:50:05] the [ __ ] best.
[1:50:07] >> Oh yeah.
[1:50:07] >> You know what I mean? Like there's a
[1:50:08] superiority complex, you know, built
[1:50:11] into that. That is, I think,
[1:50:14] >> unique to the addict.
[1:50:16] >> The ability to hold those two
[1:50:18] counterpoints.
[1:50:19] >> Yeah.
[1:50:20] >> At the same time.
[1:50:20] >> Well, that's the ego. It's like I'm the
[1:50:22] best, I'm the worst. It doesn't mind
[1:50:24] being the worst as long as it's the most
[1:50:25] something.
[1:50:27] >> Like I'll be the most, right? Am I Did I
[1:50:30] win? Did I win the worst? You know, do I
[1:50:32] get a trophy? Am I important? Because
[1:50:34] I'm the biggest piece of [ __ ] you know?
[1:50:36] And it's I had a sponsor very early on
[1:50:38] who I used to love because I would call
[1:50:39] him and I would like share these safe
[1:50:42] self-hating feelings that I was having.
[1:50:43] Like I'm like, I'm so ashamed about this
[1:50:45] and I'm so embarrassed about this and I
[1:50:46] don't know what to do about this and and
[1:50:48] he would say, "Are you thinking about
[1:50:49] yourself?"
[1:50:51] like he would just say like, "Oh, it
[1:50:52] sounds like you're thinking about
[1:50:53] yourself. Are you thinking about
[1:50:54] yourself?"
[1:50:55] >> And um I was like, "Yeah, I'm thinking
[1:50:56] about yourself." He's like, "That's not
[1:50:58] a good idea."
[1:50:58] >> Yeah.
[1:50:59] >> You know, he's like, "How about you do
[1:51:01] some service? Anybody you can help
[1:51:03] today? Like, let's break that."
[1:51:06] >> The antidote to selfobsession.
[1:51:07] >> Yeah. Like, is there a newcomer you can
[1:51:10] talk to? Is there somebody, you know, is
[1:51:11] there like an act of kindness you can do
[1:51:13] for another human being? Or do you just
[1:51:14] want to sit here thinking about
[1:51:16] yourself?
[1:51:17] >> Yeah. Well, because that that's like
[1:51:20] it's doing something for you. It's like
[1:51:22] feeding your dopamine or whatever, like
[1:51:25] nourishing that notion that you're the
[1:51:27] worst or whatever.
[1:51:29] >> There's a weird
[1:51:30] >> dysfunctional comfort in that.
[1:51:32] >> Yeah. Well, it's the the line they
[1:51:34] always say is, "I'm not much, but I'm
[1:51:36] the only thing I ever think about."
[1:51:37] >> Right.
[1:51:41] And that's the beautiful thing about
[1:51:43] being another bozo on the bus, you know,
[1:51:45] like like I I mean I when I first came
[1:51:47] in, I'm like I'm a public figure. I
[1:51:49] can't be in this 12step room talking
[1:51:51] about these absolutely shameful episodes
[1:51:54] of sexual, romantic, and ethical
[1:51:57] degradation that I both committed and
[1:52:00] allowed myself to receive. People are
[1:52:01] going to go to page six about this.
[1:52:03] They're going to tweet about it. They're
[1:52:04] going to, you know, and and my first
[1:52:06] sponsor was like, "You're actually just
[1:52:07] another bozo on the bus." Mhm.
[1:52:10] >> Like you're not Elizabeth Gilbert here.
[1:52:13] >> Nobody actually really cares here. Like
[1:52:16] they're here to get their own recovery.
[1:52:18] >> Doing this thing here in LA. Like I I I
[1:52:20] can tell you that the that that the
[1:52:22] well-known people that that get well and
[1:52:25] stay well are the ones who get over that
[1:52:27] whole thing, you know? Yeah.
[1:52:29] >> And the ones who don't are the ones who
[1:52:31] do get caught up in that in that
[1:52:32] narrative.
[1:52:33] >> Yeah.
[1:52:34] >> It's got to be hard though. I'm
[1:52:35] sympathetic to that. Like I understand
[1:52:36] that fear. Yeah, but there really was a
[1:52:39] reckoning moment
[1:52:40] >> especially when you can't you have you
[1:52:42] struggle to trust people.
[1:52:42] >> Well, and especially because I think you
[1:52:44] mentioned at the beginning I feel like
[1:52:46] sex sex addiction and especially
[1:52:48] anything having to do with sex and love
[1:52:51] addiction for women carries the same
[1:52:53] stigma now that like being an alcoholic
[1:52:56] would have carried 40 years ago. Yeah, I
[1:52:57] think I think you're right about
[1:52:58] >> and that's why people don't know about
[1:52:59] any of these programs because it's like
[1:53:01] for shame, you know, and that's another
[1:53:04] reason why I
[1:53:07] with counsel from my sponsor made the
[1:53:09] decision to be open about it because
[1:53:11] it's like, well, if somebody's going to
[1:53:12] do I'll do it, you know, like I'll do it
[1:53:15] because everybody already knows
[1:53:16] everything about me, you know, like I've
[1:53:18] already like made it a habit of telling
[1:53:21] everybody everything. I don't have a
[1:53:22] partner to embarrass.
[1:53:24] Like my family's pretty handsoff, so
[1:53:26] they don't care. I don't have kids to
[1:53:27] embarrass. So like why don't I do it?
[1:53:30] Like I'll talk about it and then if you
[1:53:32] hear something that I'm saying that
[1:53:34] reminds you of yourself then you can go
[1:53:36] look into it and know that it exists.
[1:53:37] >> That's the way I feel about it. uh but
[1:53:39] there are traditionalists who would say
[1:53:42] that that's a violation of the tradition
[1:53:44] you know not sharing uh you know
[1:53:45] publicly about these kinds of things and
[1:53:47] I understand the reasons behind that but
[1:53:49] >> and we all have our different line with
[1:53:51] with that you know and I never quite
[1:53:53] know where to land on that but I I
[1:53:56] generally heir on the you know kind of
[1:53:59] the liberal side of it because you know
[1:54:02] for the very reasons that you that you
[1:54:03] said like there are people out there who
[1:54:05] are suffering who either aren't aware
[1:54:07] about this at or have an affiliation or
[1:54:10] or a mental construct of it that's based
[1:54:12] on television or movies or or something
[1:54:15] like that. And I think it's important to
[1:54:17] humanize it. And I think especially when
[1:54:19] it comes to like SLA and the things that
[1:54:21] you're talking about, like this is
[1:54:23] unchartered territory for a lot of
[1:54:24] people.
[1:54:25] >> Yeah. It's interesting. I actually
[1:54:27] nerded out the way I'd love to and did a
[1:54:29] deep dive into what the founders had to
[1:54:31] say about this.
[1:54:32] >> Oh, really?
[1:54:33] >> Yeah. Because there is a lot I mean and
[1:54:34] there isn't a consensus on it in the
[1:54:36] rooms. I mean, this is real inside
[1:54:37] baseball recovery stuff, but there
[1:54:39] >> people get really heated about it. And
[1:54:41] um there's there have been articles in
[1:54:42] the New York Times about it. Is it okay?
[1:54:43] Is it not okay?
[1:54:44] >> You know, people are like, "It's an
[1:54:46] anonymous program. It's right there in
[1:54:48] the title." You know, and and for me,
[1:54:50] it's like, well, I would certainly never
[1:54:51] blow up anybody else's anonymity. But
[1:54:54] but I don't see anywhere where it says
[1:54:56] that you have to
[1:54:58] >> you're not allowed to identify yourself
[1:55:00] as an addict. And um there's also to
[1:55:02] consider that when all of this stuff was
[1:55:03] created, you would lose your job if you
[1:55:06] were an alcoholic back in 1935. You
[1:55:08] would be shunned from from your
[1:55:10] community. Like it was essential that
[1:55:12] there was no discussion about this
[1:55:13] outside of the rooms. And yet
[1:55:15] >> Bill Wrote a couple of really
[1:55:16] interesting essays about this very
[1:55:18] topic. And um and I was like, what's
[1:55:20] Bill got to say about this? And his
[1:55:22] position was you should talk about it
[1:55:25] all the time. You should always talk
[1:55:27] about being an addict and you should
[1:55:29] always talk about being an addict who
[1:55:31] has found recovery because you are a
[1:55:33] beacon of hope for people
[1:55:35] >> who need to see that there is a
[1:55:37] possibility of healing from this thing
[1:55:39] that has dogged them forever. But you
[1:55:41] don't have to get into the specifics of
[1:55:44] naming your program. You can say, "I
[1:55:45] found recovery in a 12step program that
[1:55:48] deals with alcoholism."
[1:55:49] >> You don't have to say I found recovery
[1:55:51] in AA. And his reason, which I thought
[1:55:53] was really subtle for that, was if
[1:55:55] somebody like if somebody hears that,
[1:55:57] they'll go find it. But he also said,
[1:55:59] "If you if someone dislikes you," he's
[1:56:03] like, "We have to save the rooms from
[1:56:04] people's personalities." He's like, "If
[1:56:06] somebody dislikes you and they hear that
[1:56:08] you're an AA and they need AA, they
[1:56:10] might not go to AA,
[1:56:11] >> but if you just say like, I was sick and
[1:56:14] now I'm well." And I found a 12step
[1:56:16] program about that. He was like, "Talk
[1:56:17] about it. Write about it. Put it in the
[1:56:19] papers. Like, everybody should know
[1:56:21] about this. Other thing they're afraid
[1:56:22] of is if it's a well-known person and
[1:56:25] you know they're just going everywhere
[1:56:27] talking about it um and they're in early
[1:56:29] sobriety and they relapse or they
[1:56:32] relapse later like that
[1:56:34] >> that you know casts a shadow on on the
[1:56:37] viability of the program.
[1:56:39] >> Suddenly it's like oh that doesn't work
[1:56:40] >> it doesn't work
[1:56:40] >> because this person didn't work.
[1:56:42] >> And these things come in waves as
[1:56:43] somebody who's been around for a long
[1:56:44] time. Like every couple years there's a
[1:56:46] sort of zeitgeist moment in the press
[1:56:47] where it's like this doesn't work and
[1:56:49] here's the new thing. I've seen like,
[1:56:51] you know, so many versions of that. But
[1:56:53] what's stuck around
[1:56:55] >> this
[1:56:56] >> miracle where all these people who can
[1:56:59] barely get along have somehow figured
[1:57:01] out to create this thing that has
[1:57:03] thrived across the globe. Like it's
[1:57:05] really insane
[1:57:06] >> for almost 100 years.
[1:57:07] >> I mean, it is a miracle
[1:57:08] >> and it's free. What I always say, it's
[1:57:10] like, where else can you stumble into a
[1:57:14] room full of strangers, broken,
[1:57:17] penniless, alone, desperate, not knowing
[1:57:21] where to go, who to turn, and this group
[1:57:24] of people will take you in and hold you
[1:57:27] and help you and ask for nothing in
[1:57:31] return. It's incredible.
[1:57:33] >> That's the part that's so interesting to
[1:57:35] me is the asking for nothing in return.
[1:57:37] Um because so much of my relationship
[1:57:41] history has been transactional.
[1:57:43] You know, like I I'm going to earn your
[1:57:46] love, attention, validation, and
[1:57:47] acceptance by huge acts of service or
[1:57:50] overgiving or you know, I'm like we're
[1:57:53] going to I'm going to make sure that I
[1:57:54] get you locked down. My first sponsor I
[1:57:56] used to bring up gifts like I mean
[1:57:58] that's my giving gifts to people is my
[1:58:00] love language, but it's also my
[1:58:02] manipulation language. It's a it's a
[1:58:03] sort of a thin line where it's like I'm
[1:58:05] going to give you this thing so you love
[1:58:07] me and don't leave me. And I remember
[1:58:08] her saying like you I don't need this
[1:58:11] you know like it's very sweet that you
[1:58:13] gave me this necklace. I mean now I
[1:58:15] think it's so
[1:58:16] >> like if one of my sponses was like here
[1:58:18] I gave you a like I'd be like honey it's
[1:58:20] not what we're doing here you know like
[1:58:22] that's not this is the one place that
[1:58:24] that's not what we're doing here. And as
[1:58:27] your sponsor, like that's what I tell my
[1:58:29] sponses now like actually and I remember
[1:58:32] my sponsor saying to this to me and it
[1:58:33] didn't make any sense where she's like
[1:58:35] I'm getting much more out of this than
[1:58:36] you are taking you through the steps.
[1:58:38] And I was like that can't be true.
[1:58:40] You're giving me all this time for free
[1:58:42] and dealing with my [ __ ] you know but
[1:58:45] now that I have spons I'm like oh yeah
[1:58:47] there's this is such a gift to be able
[1:58:50] to do this. How has this affected your
[1:58:54] creativity and and your output? Like
[1:58:57] you've, you know, opted out of like a
[1:58:59] lot of drama and a lot of, you know,
[1:59:01] energy kind of placed in the wrong
[1:59:02] direction and you've replaced it with
[1:59:05] your engagement with the program and
[1:59:06] recovery and things like that. But
[1:59:08] there's a lot of head space that is now
[1:59:11] freed up.
[1:59:12] >> I've written three books in the last six
[1:59:14] years, which is crazy.
[1:59:16] >> Wow. I mean, not that that should be a
[1:59:18] measure of anything other than, wow,
[1:59:20] look what happens when all of this
[1:59:23] energy,
[1:59:24] like I've had a hole in my boat that
[1:59:26] I've been like, I've been simultaneously
[1:59:28] rowing the boat and bailing the boat
[1:59:29] out. And I'm actually really proud of
[1:59:31] myself for how far I got
[1:59:33] >> rowing with one arm, you know, while
[1:59:35] simultaneously bailing out the boat. But
[1:59:37] like stepping out of the drama cycle as
[1:59:41] you just mentioned with sexual and
[1:59:43] romantic engagement, it's like I got two
[1:59:45] arms to row now. And it's like whoa.
[1:59:49] >> Like this is this is wild. I mean, one
[1:59:51] of the beautiful definitions I heard of
[1:59:52] of of addiction is addiction is giving
[1:59:55] up everything for one thing and recovery
[1:59:58] is giving up one thing for everything.
[2:00:00] And my everything has gotten so big.
[2:00:04] Like, and it's not just the creativity,
[2:00:06] but this is the one that kind of a
[2:00:08] little bit breaks my heart. Like I've
[2:00:10] always had great friends and
[2:00:13] a lot of friends, but my relationships,
[2:00:16] my central kind of like flagship
[2:00:19] relationship, whoever it was, whoever I
[2:00:21] had taken hostage
[2:00:23] at the moment, whoever I had decided was
[2:00:25] like that person at the center of my
[2:00:27] life, the amount, the sheer amount of
[2:00:30] energy that I poured into that was so
[2:00:34] enormous. And now when I'm not doing
[2:00:36] that, I look around and I'm like, I had
[2:00:37] these incredible friends. Like I've got
[2:00:40] these decadel long, decadesl long
[2:00:42] friendships that I had been just
[2:00:45] nominally
[2:00:46] attending to for my entire life.
[2:00:48] Wonderful people, like loving,
[2:00:51] extraordinary people. And it's like it
[2:00:53] brings tears to my eyes. I was like, you
[2:00:54] were there the whole time. Like you were
[2:00:56] there like I I was sending you a
[2:00:58] Christmas card once a year and we could
[2:01:01] have been doing this. Like we could have
[2:01:02] been having this amazing generative,
[2:01:04] creative, really fun, incredible
[2:01:06] friendship. Like community existed,
[2:01:10] >> you know, creativity existed, God
[2:01:12] existed. Like it's like all this other
[2:01:13] stuff was there that was being blocked
[2:01:15] by my one thing because that thing was
[2:01:19] like the thing I was obsessed with and
[2:01:20] fixated on.
[2:01:21] >> And now you could take it all the way to
[2:01:22] the river.
[2:01:24] >> Hopefully.
[2:01:25] >> Explain explain what that means. The
[2:01:26] title of the book.
[2:01:28] >> So my partner Rehea was a New Yorker. I
[2:01:30] mean, she was a Syrian immigrant raised
[2:01:32] in Detroit, but identified as a New
[2:01:35] Yorker and particularly a New Yorker on
[2:01:36] the Lower East Side. And she had this
[2:01:38] operative metaphor for describing her
[2:01:40] friendships. And she said, "There's you
[2:01:42] got your Fifth Avenue friends." So, she
[2:01:43] would look at a map of New York and be
[2:01:45] like, "Right here in the center is Fifth
[2:01:46] Avenue. So, your Fifth Avenue friends
[2:01:48] are the people that you're completely
[2:01:50] superficial with, and it's professional
[2:01:52] relationships." And, you know, you've
[2:01:54] got a sort of mask on, they've got a
[2:01:55] mask on. You know, they have a mask on.
[2:01:57] They know you do. You don't want to take
[2:01:58] the mask off. you know, you just you're
[2:02:00] acting a certain role. And then you go
[2:02:02] to like a little farther east and you go
[2:02:04] to like your fourth and third avenue
[2:02:05] friends and you start to let them see
[2:02:08] you a little bit more and there's a
[2:02:10] little bit like the mask starts to come
[2:02:12] off. And then you get to your like
[2:02:13] second and first avenue friends and now
[2:02:17] there's intimacy. Like they know about
[2:02:19] your history, you know about their
[2:02:20] history. Maybe you went to their
[2:02:22] wedding. Like you've met their family,
[2:02:24] you start to see behind the public
[2:02:25] persona. And she's like, "But it's not
[2:02:27] till you get to your Avenue A, B, C, and
[2:02:30] D friends, your alphabet city friends.
[2:02:33] Those are the people who have been in
[2:02:35] the [ __ ] with you and they know
[2:02:37] everything. Like they know they were
[2:02:39] with you through your divorce and
[2:02:41] through your breakup and through your
[2:02:42] addiction and they dropped you off at
[2:02:44] rehab and like they know all the stuff,
[2:02:47] you know, and they love you anyway. And
[2:02:48] maybe you've had problems with them,
[2:02:49] you've had fights with them, you've had
[2:02:50] to make up. Like you've seen them,
[2:02:52] they've seen you." And then she's like,
[2:02:54] "But if you're really lucky," because
[2:02:57] after Avenue D, there's just the highway
[2:02:59] and then there's the river. She's like,
[2:03:01] "Once in your life, if you're very
[2:03:02] lucky, you might have an all the way to
[2:03:04] the riverfront." And that's
[2:03:06] just makes me cry again to say it, but
[2:03:08] she was always like, "You're my all the
[2:03:09] way to the river friend." Like, "We're
[2:03:10] going to go all the way to the East
[2:03:11] River together." Which means
[2:03:14] you will see everything. Yeah.
[2:03:16] >> Like there will be nothing withheld. And
[2:03:19] they know you. like they know you at the
[2:03:22] depth of the deepest depth that you can
[2:03:24] know somebody and
[2:03:27] she was always like you're my all the
[2:03:28] way to riverfront and I I was I took so
[2:03:30] much pride in it and then when she
[2:03:32] started when we found out she was dying
[2:03:34] we started calling her death the river
[2:03:36] so on the day she found out she had
[2:03:38] terminal cancer she said I want you to
[2:03:39] walk all the way to the river with me
[2:03:42] and god help us I did because as I
[2:03:44] describe in the book if you've ever
[2:03:46] walked all the way from Fifth Avenue to
[2:03:47] the East River it's not a very nice walk
[2:03:49] it's a lot better than it used to be.
[2:03:51] >> It's like back in the day though, it's
[2:03:53] like you're going through projects.
[2:03:54] You're stepping over drug dealer. Like
[2:03:56] like you're walking on needles and crack
[2:03:59] vials. There's dog [ __ ] I mean, like
[2:04:01] the closer you get to the river,
[2:04:03] >> the more intense it is. You got to make
[2:04:04] it across the,
[2:04:05] >> you know, across the highway. You've got
[2:04:07] to find the overpass. There's
[2:04:08] >> and then you get to the East River and
[2:04:10] it's the East River,
[2:04:11] >> right?
[2:04:11] >> Which is like you don't exactly want to
[2:04:13] jump in the East River, you know? So,
[2:04:14] it's
[2:04:15] >> it's harrowing. Like the book the book
[2:04:18] has been described to me as harrowing
[2:04:20] and but I think that true intimacy is
[2:04:25] you know like really allowing yourself
[2:04:26] to be that known I think is a bit
[2:04:29] harrowing because
[2:04:32] we're difficult humans. We're difficult
[2:04:34] and we're full of contradictions and
[2:04:37] dangerous and unreliable and beautiful
[2:04:39] and sublime all at the same time.
[2:04:42] >> Yeah. If you want the beauty and
[2:04:44] transcendence that a relationship can
[2:04:47] deliver in the best way, you got to walk
[2:04:50] past Avenue D and you know like maybe
[2:04:52] step on a syringe or two along the way,
[2:04:55] you know.
[2:04:56] >> Yeah.
[2:04:56] >> Now it's all gentrified. I think didn't
[2:04:58] they just down at like by East River
[2:05:00] also there didn't that new park like
[2:05:02] right on the river just open right now?
[2:05:04] It's all nice.
[2:05:04] >> I'm still picturing the housing projects
[2:05:06] are still there, you know, like the the
[2:05:08] the abandoned parts of the city are
[2:05:10] still there. power plant is there.
[2:05:13] >> Yeah, that weird power plant,
[2:05:14] >> you know, that everybody who lives over
[2:05:15] there has to breathe. And um I remember
[2:05:18] one time, I don't know why I'm thinking
[2:05:19] of this, but when Rya got cancer and
[2:05:20] they put a port in her arm at one point
[2:05:22] so that they could um be able to inject
[2:05:26] her with chemo drugs and not have to
[2:05:28] just keep taking a port in and out. And
[2:05:30] and this was before she had her big drug
[2:05:32] relapse. And we walked we walked out of
[2:05:33] the hospital and she was like her eyes
[2:05:35] were shining and she's like, "Dude, you
[2:05:37] know what I could have done with this
[2:05:38] back in the day?" She's like, she's
[2:05:40] like, I can't freaking believe they they
[2:05:43] do this.
[2:05:44] >> She's like, I could put anything in
[2:05:45] here.
[2:05:45] >> They just they let her leave the
[2:05:47] hospital.
[2:05:47] >> They let me leave the hospital with a
[2:05:49] port in my arm that I could stick a
[2:05:51] needle with anything in it. She was like
[2:05:54] like she was kind of like tweaked by
[2:05:56] She's like, "I could put Jack Daniels in
[2:05:58] this. I could put anything in this. I
[2:05:59] could put like I could shoot anything I
[2:06:01] wanted right into my veins so easily."
[2:06:02] She's like, "It's great." And um and I
[2:06:04] remember we were up in Midtown and like
[2:06:06] she'd just come from chemo. And I was
[2:06:07] like, "If you had to
[2:06:11] find heroin, you know, now after 18
[2:06:14] years clean, how long would it take
[2:06:17] you?" And she I just remember her whole
[2:06:20] demeanor changed and she just like she
[2:06:21] like looked at her watch. She did this
[2:06:23] like really like wolfish kind of look at
[2:06:25] her watch and she's like and she's like
[2:06:26] where are we? And she like clocked the
[2:06:28] street she was on and she goes 15
[2:06:29] minutes.
[2:06:31] 15 minutes I could be an an avenue D. I
[2:06:35] know exactly where to go. And she said
[2:06:36] all I would have to do is point to this.
[2:06:38] Um and and I was like, whoa. And and and
[2:06:42] now that I understand how easy it is to
[2:06:44] be swept into addiction, there's a
[2:06:46] chapter that I have in my book called
[2:06:47] You Will Have 30 Seconds to Save Your
[2:06:49] Life. That's about
[2:06:52] what the the vigilance and this is a
[2:06:54] good use of my vigilance. The vigilance
[2:06:56] and the awareness and that I have to
[2:06:58] keep as I move through the world to not
[2:07:01] be like I could get that in 15 minutes
[2:07:03] you know.
[2:07:04] >> Yeah. My question to you is
[2:07:06] how long would it take you in a, you
[2:07:08] know, in a crowded room walking down the
[2:07:10] street or in New York City to like
[2:07:12] identify at 50 meters like who that
[2:07:14] person is who's going to just light you
[2:07:17] up and fill those needs and do all the
[2:07:20] things that you know you want them to do
[2:07:22] for you. Like to go right back to that
[2:07:24] place.
[2:07:24] >> Getting a little older first of all,
[2:07:26] >> so it might not be it might not be quite
[2:07:28] as easy as it used to. I mean, this
[2:07:30] isn't about me blowing my horn in any
[2:07:33] way. It's not hard for a woman.
[2:07:35] >> Yeah.
[2:07:35] >> You know what I mean? Like you simply
[2:07:37] must agree to make your body available
[2:07:39] to somebody and there will be somebody
[2:07:41] who will happily do that, you know? So
[2:07:42] it's not it's not like you don't have to
[2:07:44] be like a ma I don't have to be like a
[2:07:46] master seductress like you just have to
[2:07:48] be like you know just raise your hand
[2:07:50] and be like anybody, you know, like you
[2:07:53] know someone will. So it's not it's not
[2:07:55] hard, you know. I think it's it's not
[2:07:57] hard. It's not hard for any addict to
[2:08:01] find the thing. Um, the hard thing is to
[2:08:06] not do that. You know, that's the thing.
[2:08:09] And and the hardest thing, I think, is
[2:08:11] to not see is to be able to see where
[2:08:14] you're setting yourself up, where you're
[2:08:15] in dangerous territory. You know, where
[2:08:18] you are not putting yourself in
[2:08:19] dangerous circumstances.
[2:08:22] You know, for an alcoholic, that might
[2:08:24] be mean like I don't hang out in a bar.
[2:08:28] >> Like, I'm just not going to do that to
[2:08:29] myself. I'm just not going to put myself
[2:08:31] in that circumstance.
[2:08:33] >> When you think of that younger Liz in
[2:08:35] Bali on the Eat, Pray, Love train,
[2:08:39] >> you know, doing the meditation and, you
[2:08:41] know, dipping your toe into
[2:08:43] spirituality.
[2:08:44] >> When you reflect back on that time, were
[2:08:46] there lessons imparted to you then that
[2:08:50] you feel like you're only learning now?
[2:08:53] >> Yeah. And every bit of it was necessary,
[2:08:55] too. You know, like there's a common
[2:08:57] question that I'm sure you've heard a
[2:08:59] billion times where interviewers will
[2:09:00] say like, "What would you have told your
[2:09:01] younger self if you could?" And I am
[2:09:04] left with no answer but do everything
[2:09:07] you're going to do. Like do everything
[2:09:09] you're going to do. All of it. You have
[2:09:10] to do all of it. You have to do all the
[2:09:12] great stuff and you have to do all the
[2:09:13] horrible stuff cuz otherwise I don't get
[2:09:15] to be here. Like this is all of that is
[2:09:17] what's going to create where we are now.
[2:09:19] And where we are now is good. Um, so
[2:09:22] yeah, I mean, and I think
[2:09:25] I had glimmers of it, you know, I had
[2:09:28] glimmers of it, but I don't think I
[2:09:31] believed
[2:09:33] that. I mean, and I felt God. I've I've
[2:09:36] I've always loved God. I've always kind
[2:09:38] of believed in God. I've always sensed
[2:09:40] God. I've always loved the wonder and
[2:09:42] the mystery of what I call God, but I've
[2:09:44] never trusted God.
[2:09:46] Not for a minute. It's like, I love you.
[2:09:50] your work is great. Big fan. I'm going
[2:09:52] to control this.
[2:09:53] >> Mhm.
[2:09:54] >> I'm going to control this. So, I think I
[2:09:56] didn't while I felt that I'd had I did
[2:09:59] have beautiful spiritual awakenings in
[2:10:00] that journey as like I'm still driving
[2:10:03] this car
[2:10:04] >> and that's
[2:10:06] you know mixed results.
[2:10:09] >> That's why it's a practice of constantly
[2:10:13] turning it over and turning it over
[2:10:15] again.
[2:10:16] >> Yeah.
[2:10:18] and again and again and again.
[2:10:20] >> I love that the Tibetan Buddhists call
[2:10:22] meditation reme remembering. That's
[2:10:25] their translation for meditation. They
[2:10:26] don't have a word for meditation. It's
[2:10:28] just remembering practice. You just sit
[2:10:29] and remember
[2:10:31] >> what you forgot,
[2:10:33] >> right?
[2:10:33] >> And some of us
[2:10:34] >> that we are all one. We're like I said,
[2:10:36] we're all just trying to get back home,
[2:10:38] right? We're trying to find our way. And
[2:10:40] addicts,
[2:10:41] >> I think, are are fundamentally spiritual
[2:10:43] seekers. They're looking for something.
[2:10:45] They're trying to fill that hole.
[2:10:46] They're doing it in wrong-headed ways,
[2:10:48] but they're very committed and int, you
[2:10:51] know, intent upon finding answers,
[2:10:55] right? And, you know, the gift of of
[2:10:57] bottoming out is that then you're
[2:10:59] blessed with this opportunity to
[2:11:00] redirect that energy in in a healthy
[2:11:02] way. And a lot of people don't don't get
[2:11:05] that.
[2:11:06] >> Well, don't have that. I have a funny
[2:11:08] experience like I totally identify every
[2:11:09] addict. Doesn't matter what it is. Like
[2:11:11] if you're an addict, you're one of my
[2:11:13] one of my people. Like I could sit on
[2:11:14] any meeting, you know, and be like, "Oh,
[2:11:17] yeah." Like I don't do that, you know? I
[2:11:20] don't I'm not a gambler, but I could sit
[2:11:22] in a gambling meeting and I could get
[2:11:24] recovery listening to people talk about
[2:11:26] their recovery from gambling like 100%.
[2:11:29] Cuz I know what it feels like to think
[2:11:32] that you can get this thing somewhere,
[2:11:35] you know? Here's who I don't get. People
[2:11:37] who don't feel like they're on fire with
[2:11:40] questions,
[2:11:42] you know? people who like are just like
[2:11:45] like kind of walking through life and I
[2:11:47] can I can never tell if they're like
[2:11:48] great saints or just super checked out.
[2:11:50] Like people who are like the new Toyota
[2:11:53] Camry is nice.
[2:11:54] >> Yeah.
[2:11:55] >> You know, and you're like I'm looking in
[2:11:56] their eyes. I'm like, do you not hunger?
[2:11:59] Do you not hunger? Are you not like are
[2:12:01] you not baffled by this? Are you not
[2:12:03] like And they're just like And I can
[2:12:05] never tell like like what's it feel like
[2:12:07] to not have your head on fire? What's it
[2:12:09] feel like to not be famished for
[2:12:11] experiences? What's it feel like to be
[2:12:13] satisfied? Like people who appear to
[2:12:16] just be satisfied are a marvel to me.
[2:12:19] Like I'm like, how are you just hanging
[2:12:21] out?
[2:12:23] >> Yeah. I mean, it's either a Buddha
[2:12:25] consciousness or it it's completely, you
[2:12:27] know, it's complete distraction or
[2:12:29] repression.
[2:12:30] >> And I can't know.
[2:12:31] >> Yeah.
[2:12:31] >> So, I'm going to assume Buddha
[2:12:33] consciousness because it's a more
[2:12:34] generous interpretation. But like that
[2:12:37] that's what I don't get. I get
[2:12:38] addiction. I just I don't get I'm good.
[2:12:43] You know,
[2:12:44] >> like if you're not going to the extreme,
[2:12:45] like how are you a lot, you know?
[2:12:47] >> You know, people who like live in the
[2:12:49] town they grew up in and they're like, I
[2:12:50] like it here.
[2:12:51] >> You know, and I'm like,
[2:12:53] >> did you not want to
[2:12:55] >> go see the other stuff?
[2:12:58] >> I mean, God bless.
[2:13:00] Like, I know it's incredible. Like, and
[2:13:01] and meanwhile, it's like I'll probably
[2:13:03] end up back in where I grew up and be
[2:13:05] like, after all that, right? I just
[2:13:06] circled around and came home.
[2:13:08] >> You had to do all those things to do
[2:13:10] came naturally to that with the guy who
[2:13:12] just never left
[2:13:13] >> who was like, "Oh, good to see you. I
[2:13:14] knew you'd be back."
[2:13:15] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[2:13:16] >> Who's the teacher?
[2:13:17] >> Exactly. I mean, that's why those people
[2:13:19] are mysterious to me because I'm like, I
[2:13:21] don't understand. There's a there's a
[2:13:22] scene in Ebola with this
[2:13:24] >> this Irish guy that I met there at the
[2:13:26] ashram who was deep on a hard spiritual
[2:13:28] journey and he said he went home and he
[2:13:30] was trying to tell his father. His
[2:13:32] father was like a a sheep farmer in
[2:13:35] County Cork who was like ninth
[2:13:37] generation on his land just living in
[2:13:39] this life of routine and he this kid was
[2:13:42] just a seeker and he'd spent his entire
[2:13:44] life traveling the world. He came home
[2:13:45] to get visit his dad and he was like
[2:13:47] telling him about meditation and about
[2:13:48] India and about chanting and his dad's
[2:13:52] just listening and like staring into the
[2:13:54] fire and he's like dad you got to try
[2:13:55] this meditation. And it gives you a
[2:13:56] quiet mind, Dad. Gives you a quiet mind.
[2:13:59] And his father said, "I've got a quiet
[2:14:01] mind, son."
[2:14:02] >> Yeah.
[2:14:03] >> You know, um, but my friend didn't. And
[2:14:06] when you don't, I think you have to
[2:14:07] become a seeker. I don't have one
[2:14:09] either, you know. So, I have one now
[2:14:12] more than I've ever had one, but
[2:14:16] you know, it's it's an arcade in here.
[2:14:18] >> Me, too.
[2:14:20] Welcome to the asylum.
[2:14:22] You're the best, Liz. I love you. Uh
[2:14:25] this was fantastic. I could I could just
[2:14:27] talk to you. I could do this every day
[2:14:29] with you.
[2:14:31] >> You're amazing. Um you inspired me in so
[2:14:34] many ways over many many years through
[2:14:37] >> not just your books, but your example,
[2:14:40] the way that you show up, your your
[2:14:42] courage to be as honest and as
[2:14:44] vulnerable as you are. And this latest
[2:14:48] chapter is just a whole new level of
[2:14:50] that. It's really beautifully written
[2:14:53] and I think it's gonna help a lot of
[2:14:54] people. So,
[2:14:55] >> thanks.
[2:14:56] >> Thank you for that and keep doing your
[2:14:57] thing. Yeah, I'm I'm always like I'm
[2:14:59] always here to support you. I'm such a
[2:15:01] massive fan. I just have a huge place in
[2:15:03] my heart for you and feel very connected
[2:15:05] to the mission that you're on.
[2:15:06] >> Thank you and I to yours. Let's keep
[2:15:09] going. Huh.
[2:15:09] >> Thanks.
[2:15:11] >> Final thing. Is it true that you met
[2:15:14] Adam Skolnick in Bali during that pray
[2:15:18] love situation? Is that fact or fiction?
[2:15:20] >> Not only is it true, Adam is in Eat,
[2:15:22] Pray, Love.
[2:15:22] >> He is.
[2:15:23] >> Yes.
[2:15:24] >> I did not know that.
[2:15:26] >> That I didn't know.
[2:15:27] >> He is in Eat Love.
[2:15:28] >> Like a news flash.
[2:15:29] >> Yeah, it's true.
[2:15:31] >> All right. Please just tell this
[2:15:33] postcript story quickly. My friend and
[2:15:35] yours, Adam Skolnick, I met in Ubud,
[2:15:38] Bali in 2004
[2:15:41] and we became friends and he came to my
[2:15:44] 34th birthday part, 35th birthday party
[2:15:47] which was held with at Yam the healer's
[2:15:50] house and he's got a couple lines in the
[2:15:53] book and um we've been friends ever
[2:15:55] since. I didn't know that he had lines
[2:15:57] in the book.
[2:15:57] >> And do you know for when he was he's
[2:15:59] obviously a very happily married man
[2:16:01] now, but when he was a young single man,
[2:16:03] a very good calling card to get women to
[2:16:05] like him and trust him was to say that
[2:16:07] he was friends with Liz Gilbert and that
[2:16:08] he's a character in he love.
[2:16:12] >> How many dinners did you die out on that
[2:16:14] one, buddy? How many dates?
[2:16:16] >> I played the fish.
[2:16:18] >> All right, we're next roll on. This is
[2:16:20] going to be explored.
[2:16:22] [Music]